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Author Topic: Double screen play and windows reduction  (Read 9497 times)

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Offline Teokryt

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Double screen play and windows reduction
« on: January 13, 2014, 10:35:04 AM »
Its annoying thing when I play, 75% of screen view is covered by many windows, infrastructure toolbar, depot windows and route monitor. On screen resolution 1280x1024, my "play filed' is too small and before build network I must close more windows. Now I have second screen but i cant play simutrans at two screens.

Second  improvement - view tool check building/tree/road information after hold CTRL/SHIFT. It's annoying when I open tree or building info near stop and must close usefulness window.

Third thing - collect all message in one bar/box. Depot reaching, our mistakes generate new window with tiny "X" to close" when I sent to depot all convoys I see multiple "depot reached" messages everywhere! Bottom horizontal bar is not for these "junk" messages and they may be collected in one vertical window/toolbar with icons. Fully disable messages is not good because some information is useful (not connected tracks).

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 11:11:09 AM »
Play in windowed mode should allow you to play on both screens.

You can either pin windows, which you want to keep open (those will not close upon backspace), and then just close from time to time the useless windows by backspace. Or you can minimize window by right click on the title.

You can configure, which information is shown in permanent, temporary windows, in the scrollbar or not at all in the settings in the main messgae dialogue (there is a help button too ... ) Merging multiple message windows are not really an option, since those would be connected with multiple locations. For this please use the message dialogue, which has tabs that collect several messages in different categories.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 02:10:31 PM »
Hmm... is there a way to open a second "main window" or a "viewport" (á la OpenTTD)?  It would be quite amazing to have two independently controllable (scrollable, zoomable) views of the same game.  Those of us with three or four monitors could totally geek out...

Offline Teokryt

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 02:30:37 PM »
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You can configure, which information is shown in permanent, temporary windows, in the scrollbar or not at all in the settings in the main messgae dialogue (there is a help button too ... ) Merging multiple message windows are not really an option, since those would be connected with multiple locations. For this please use the message dialogue, which has tabs that collect several messages in different categories.
Some of messages are in one category. I will see expanded categories of messages. Some messages pop-ups when we do obviously click-mistake and not disapear.

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Play in windowed mode should allow you to play on both screens.

how? I can't drag any window to other screen. Main window limit drag.

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Hmm... is there a way to open a second "main window" or a "viewport" (á la OpenTTD)?  It would be quite amazing to have two independently controllable (scrollable, zoomable) views of the same game.  Those of us with three or four monitors could totally geek out...
Only able to detaching windows from main "viewport" and drag it to other screen (and save position). I Will use a second screen as "transport monitor" to check finances, stop usage, track observing.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 03:00:51 PM »
Then you need to give me your OS. In case of windows, GDI should happily draw on both screens, when you manually drag the window on both of them. (It worked a year ago, at least for the GDI version on windows XP and windows7.) With SDL you milage will vary.

Offline Teokryt

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2014, 03:26:08 PM »
Windows 7, 64bit.
Is not possible to drag out any window inside main window. When I resize mail window, all inside windows shrink.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 03:56:43 PM »
No, but you should be able to manually increase the size of the main window until it almost fills both screens. (I seem to have a faint memory that there is somewhere a setting for windows 7 that maximizing a window will put it over two screens. It depends on the graphics driver though).

Or you have to resort to some commercial tools which does this hassle free.

Offline Ters

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 04:01:54 PM »
Hmm... is there a way to open a second "main window" or a "viewport" (á la OpenTTD)?  It would be quite amazing to have two independently controllable (scrollable, zoomable) views of the same game.  Those of us with three or four monitors could totally geek out...

Not without some major work, even though Simutrans isn't as impossible as it could have been. I've been toying with the idea for some of my own abandoned projects, but it's not easy even without the constraints of an existing game.

Is not possible to drag out any window inside main window. When I resize mail window, all inside windows shrink.

You don't drag windows inside Simutrans outside Simutrans, but you can have Simutrans span two screens. The result isn't very pleasing if your screens aren't aligned, though.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 04:04:59 PM »
You can also run simutrans as server locally and then start a second simutrans with a different location connecting as a client. That did someone in the past. However, the tools will obviously change from left to right and vice versa ...

Offline Teokryt

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 04:09:58 PM »
Ha!
I use double screen, not arranged horizontally (because is different resolution). Maximizing window not solve problem, maximizing window not affect on second screen. Detaching from main window any ingame windows solve problem...

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You don't drag windows inside Simutrans outside Simutrans, but you can have Simutrans span two screens. The result isn't very pleasing if your screens aren't aligned, though.

And not be able anymore?

So, my vision of playing Simutrans is few monitors, each monitor using for specific work, one for depots, one for finances controling, one for routing and stops monitor one for planning infrastructure. Now all windows are in stack in one window.

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You can also run simutrans as server locally and then start a second simutrans with a different location connecting as a client.

Tried, play without change speed is so boooooooring.

Some way to solve this is... reshape GUI.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 06:46:37 PM »
Hi,

How hard would it be to chnge the gui so that the toolbars and dialogs would be independent windows? It would be great if they could be dragged out of the main window. Maximizing simutrans over more screens is an option, but it  consumes more resources.

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Offline ӔO

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 06:54:07 PM »
which graphics are you using?
I know I can span simutrans in two windows by expanding, not maximizing, the window to span two screens.

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Offline Ters

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 07:03:11 PM »
I know I can span simutrans in two windows by expanding, not maximizing, the window to span two screens.

I assume you have two identical screens then. Horizontal span doesn't work so well if the screens have different height, and similarly for width if vertical. Either part of Simutrans will not be visible, or the bigger screen will have surplus space not utilized by Simutrans. The unused screen space can in slightly extreme cases be as big as the smaller screen, giving no gain.

One issue with being able to undock windows is that all these small windows can get lost among the other non-Simutrans windows. For me, even the three windows in Gimp can confuse me, although some apparently like it that way. (Fortunately, Gimp is configurable now.)

Offline Teokryt

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 07:24:23 PM »
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I know I can span Simutrans in two windows by expanding, not maximizing, the window to span two screens.
Is not good for me because I use  19" LCD (1280x1024) and HD TV (1920x1080). Span is not allowed.

Offline Ters

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 07:54:21 PM »
If span is not allowed, there will likely be obstacles for Simutrans to run on both in any case, at least with the SDL and OpenGL backends.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 09:20:52 PM »
SDL does not allows more than one windows in a portable way anyhow. Maybe SDL2 is better in this regard. But SDL was done foremost for screen filling games.

While fast forward will not work, the time multiplier tools could work, as they accelerate time in a reproduceable manner. Remove

In simwerkz.h replace
Code: [Select]
class wkz_change_game_speed_t : public werkzeug_t {
public:
wkz_change_game_speed_t() : werkzeug_t(WKZ_CHANGE_GAME_SPEED | SIMPLE_TOOL) {}
char const* get_tooltip(spieler_t const*) const OVERRIDE {
int faktor = atoi(default_param);
return faktor>0 ? translator::translate("Accelerate time") : translator::translate("Deccelerate time");
}
bool init( spieler_t * ) {
if(  !env_t::networkmode  ) {
welt->change_time_multiplier( atoi(default_param) );
}
return false;
}
};
by
Code: [Select]
class wkz_change_game_speed_t : public werkzeug_t {
public:
wkz_change_game_speed_t() : werkzeug_t(WKZ_CHANGE_GAME_SPEED | SIMPLE_TOOL) {}
char const* get_tooltip(spieler_t const*) const OVERRIDE {
int faktor = atoi(default_param);
return faktor>0 ? translator::translate("Accelerate time") : translator::translate("Deccelerate time");
}
bool init( spieler_t * ) {
welt->change_time_multiplier( atoi(default_param) );
return false;
}
};
and define two menu shortcuts for accelerating the game speed.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 09:35:53 PM »
I assume you have two identical screens then. Horizontal span doesn't work so well if the screens have different height, and similarly for width if vertical. Either part of Simutrans will not be visible, or the bigger screen will have surplus space not utilized by Simutrans. The unused screen space can in slightly extreme cases be as big as the smaller screen, giving no gain.

One issue with being able to undock windows is that all these small windows can get lost among the other non-Simutrans windows. For me, even the three windows in Gimp can confuse me, although some apparently like it that way. (Fortunately, Gimp is configurable now.)

Actually, I have a 23" 1920x1080 and 19" 1280x1024.
They don't scale perfectly, but it's doable.

Is not good for me because I use  19" LCD (1280x1024) and HD TV (1920x1080). Span is not allowed.

It's possible to span vertically as well. (although dragging to the top edge no longer maximizes the window in the bottom screen), however with such a screen size difference, indeed, it would be nice to have something a window with all the controls

Offline Teokryt

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 10:10:18 PM »
Vertical align confuse me. System task bar  will be on TV on right. Resolution on LCD will be shrank to 1024x768 :/ that small window spanned to two screens is not comfortable.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 09:42:24 AM »
Even if you span over two identical screens you'll still have one Problem: Whenever you go to a location, it is exactly in the middle, at the crack between two screens, which is very annoying.
Maybe this would be a solution:


Basically, put all Contents of the main window in a subwindow. It does not matter how your screens are aligned, if you can span at all, you should be able to span the main window over both screens. Sure, if you align your screens diagonally you'll not see 50% of that main window, but that's just gray background anyway - align the viewport to one screen and all the subwindows you want to be open permanently on the other screen. Everyone who does not need this has only lost 16pixels in height worst case if this is not done optionally.
(No, I have no idea how hard this would be to do, but probably easier than floating windows in a good way, like Photoshop, not Gimp)

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 10:40:40 AM »
That why running a srever and a client locally will solve most of these issues, and will allow for independent view too.

Simutrans, as a cross platform program can hardly solve all these issues. Some are not so grave since dialogues does not open in the middle but at the mouse positions and positions can be remembered (if turned on).

Offline Teokryt

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2014, 06:06:01 PM »
Quote
That why running a srever and a client locally will solve most of these issues, and will allow for independent view too.
But play at "normal speed" take long time. Now, one game play by switching normal and fast speed take 3-5 days, in normal speed  - one month!

Offline Ters

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2014, 08:01:04 PM »
But play at "normal speed" take long time. Now, one game play by switching normal and fast speed take 3-5 days, in normal speed  - one month!

Huh? I've played the same game for years. But now I think it has reached way's end. I've never changed the speed, because if I do, anything that goes bad, goes very bad very quick. Once, something went wrong and passengers started accumulating at a station. I think it took almost 10 game years, which corresponded to many months in real time, to uncrowd the station.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2014, 10:52:36 PM »
As I said, there is a tool (change game speed) which is possible to operate in network mode. Maybe I should enable it for the public player.

Offline Teokryt

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2014, 11:11:30 PM »
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I've played the same game for years.
What? You have a much time for play :).
I use simutrans as simulator for few days. Every game I learn something new.

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As I said, there is a tool (change game speed) which is possible to operate in network mode. Maybe I should enable it for the public player.

I think that I need to read more about network gaming.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2014, 11:36:32 PM »
This tool is the "," and "." key in pak64. I have enabled it for the public player (until next player joins). You can try this with the next nightly, and a pka64 (or maybe pak128).

Make two simutrans shortcuts. Into one you add after the program name

...\simutrans.exe -objetcs pak/ -server (and maybe "-no_sound -no_midi" so no two programs are playing) you could specify there also you favorite savegame name)

The second shortcut gets
...\simutrans.exe -load net:127.0.0.1

This will connect to your local server. Maximize one one one screen and the other on the other and you have two viewports. Accelerate the game with pressing the . key. (full stop, next to comma). Slowdown with comma.

Offline Ters

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2014, 06:26:04 AM »
What? You have a much time for play :).

Not really. I may play an hour or two most of the days for a week or two, maybe a month. Then I may not play again for weeks or months. Right not, I haven't really played since June. That's partially due to the radical changes in Simutrans from summer through fall, and partially because my current game has become stale (few available profitable trains in the 2030s with pak64, and cities have run out of stop names long ago), yet I'm reluctant to forsake it for a new map after all this time.

Offline whoami

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2014, 03:37:57 PM »
I have very often have ST (sub-)windows open in an inconvenient place, often overlapping an existing window from which I need information (no copy&paste for line numbers and convoys yet :) ). Also, closing important windows (first of all: line management) temporarily will reset their sizes, so I need to keep them open, but without blocking the view onto the map.
My idea is to be able to specify a part (or more?) of the main window to be empty (less drawing needed) and to be used by new windows by default (assigning a free section, if possible). This way, a main window spanning two screens could be used nicely. The centering point would need to be made configurable, too, because ST cannot determine where the center of the main monitor is.

Another nuisance are the error popups (for tools) and convoy notifications (depot reached, speed records). The bottom bar is too small to be able to catch up with the latter. My idea for this is to extend the message box in that one tab is a configurable news ticker (using an additional column in message options to filter). More message categories (as said: error messages, depot reached, speed records) would be nice as well.

Offline Ters

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2014, 04:21:50 PM »
The most obvious solution to that would be to make the view of the world a windows itself (I seem to remember SimCity 2000 did that), but that's a big change. And does it really make sense for the toolbar and status bar to be part of that window (I don't think they were in SimCity 2000). There is still the problem of how to deal with changes in screen setup while Simutrans is running. I sometimes do that, as I only have a laptop. Sometimes I unplug the external monitor at my desk and bring the laptop over to my TV chair, while continuing to play Simutrans. And back again, plugging in the external monitor again.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2014, 04:30:09 PM »
no copy&paste for line numbers and convoys yet. Also, closing important windows (first of all: line management) temporarily will reset their sizes
Copy and Paste works in any input field, hence also for convoi names. And dialogues can save their sizes, if enabled in simuconf.tab. I think the linewindow is saveable.

Offline whoami

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 07:09:55 PM »
Copy and Paste works in any input field, hence also for convoi names.
Oh sorry, I should have checked it before claiming otherwise. Copying text works. Copying whole convoys does not, does it?

Quote
And dialogues can save their sizes, if enabled in simuconf.tab. I think the linewindow is saveable.
This has never worked for me: EDIT: moving the bug report to http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=12382.0

The most obvious solution to that would be to make the view of the world a windows itself (I seem to remember SimCity 2000 did that), but that's a big change.
I sense more "lost focus" problems coming that way.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 07:15:50 PM by whoami »

Offline Ters

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2014, 07:18:31 PM »
I sense more "lost focus" problems coming that way.

But that would also be the case if one could split windows away from the main Simutrans window. And focus control is then in the hands of the platform's window manager, not Simutrans.

Offline whoami

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2014, 07:31:34 PM »
I do not suggest to split off the sub-windows, my first idea is to reserve space in the main window to place the sub-windows where they are not in the way.

Offline prissi

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Re: Double screen play and windows reduction
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2014, 10:35:23 PM »
Most windows are tileable, so stacking (non-resizable) windows to the right is possible. But then non-resizeable windows are probably not highly desired.