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Author Topic: Problem building docks on lake shores  (Read 4995 times)

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Offline The Hood

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Problem building docks on lake shores
« on: January 25, 2014, 10:12:59 AM »



With the new climates with lake shores it is now impossible to build a dock for boats on this type of shore (without the slope). This seems slightly odd. Perhaps we need to have a new type of stop that can be built directly onto water tiles (probably best if it's only the shallowest water level?) like a pontoon or pier. This would also improve the possibilities for building nice harbour layouts. Boats stopping adjacent to these tiles would then be able to unload, as now.

Offline Ters

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 10:20:04 AM »
I've been thinging about the same. Some of the docks in pak64 could just as well be built on a flat shore tile, as they cut into rather than go up the slope anyway.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 10:42:14 AM »
Or even have types of other "land" station that allow ships to dock next to them - like this if we allowed the goods platform to act as a dock too (the railway is built on a finger of land I built with the new climates tools to jut out into the lake).




EDIT: a bit of testing shows that ships can already dock adjacent to this type of station, only they can't exchange cargo because the stop isn't recognised as being a water waytype station. If you build a dock or other water-enabled stop even on the other side of the station, the whole station becomes water enabled and boats can dock on any water tile adjacent to the railway or bus stations on land. So I suggest we either add an optional flag to dat files for stations that allows certain land stations to accept water waytype on adjacent tiles, or we simply allow ANY station built adjacent to water to automatically be water-enabled.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 11:00:22 AM by The Hood »

Offline Ters

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2014, 11:21:37 AM »
I don't like the idea of having all stops allowing ships to dock at them. There should be some maritime aspect, that makes them somewhat more expensive than a land-only stops, considering the size of watercraft usually used in Simutrans.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2014, 11:28:51 AM »
I agree, but you'd still only need one tile of maritime stop to allow the whole station to act as a dock for any adjacent water tile (as per my workaround above).

Offline Ters

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2014, 12:14:13 PM »
That shouldn't be too hard to change.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2014, 12:34:41 PM »
On the other hand, flat shores in real world often reflect shallow waters, where only the smaller boats can approach without getting stranded.
I really wish we could introduce in standard ST a way to distinguish oceanfaring ships from coastal/river boats.

Offline Ters

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2014, 01:53:02 PM »
On the other hand, flat shores in real world often reflect shallow waters, where only the smaller boats can approach without getting stranded.

Many, if not most, harbours are built on flat land next to water. Especially with lakes, a flat shore doesn't mean that the water is shallow.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2014, 04:47:01 PM »
I really wish we could introduce in standard ST a way to distinguish oceanfaring ships from coastal/river boats.

Somewhere in the route-finding there should be a call to ist_wasser() which surely can be replaced by ( ist_wasser() && depth_of_water <= max_depth_for_this_vehicle ) ...?

The same ought to be true in reverse, for large vessels: they should only be able to navigate deeper waters, so the player must build long piers (available in some paks) or dredge a channel to the sea (quite realistic).

Offline Ters

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2014, 04:55:15 PM »
Max depth isn't really the right thing to check for. Simutrans doesn't have the vertical scale to represent the difference between costal regions and the deep sea. Lakes may in fact be just as deep as the deepest sea. One might also question whether Simutrans actually has oceans. The answer probably depends on what scale each player imagines their world to be.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2014, 06:27:05 PM »
Indeed, it's all just "water" to the simulation.

Thanks for bringing up this subject, The Hood, I have been spending some time thinking about harbour configurations as well.  Your workaround with the railway station has promise.  Tack a single harbour tile on that anywhere and you have yourself a full-service ship harbour.

The question then becomes whether the reality of the simulation is that important to constrain boats to using just the harbour tiles or whether it is fine to allow ships to use any part of the hybrid road/rail/ship/air station as long as it is accessible by water (of whatever depth).

This discussion is part code-related and part pak-set graphical design concept related.  With the new half height tiles and climate system, we are faced with the possibility of a player wanting to build a dock off of a full height slope, single height slope or, as in this case, on flat shoreline.

Given that most dockyards in the world are built on relatively flat ground with little grade up from the water's edge, it may look best to use a flat shore harbour system for future dockyards in most paksets.  I think this might look really nice: a pier that is 3-4 tiles long, maybe 6-8 pixels in height above the water with a ramp at the end that leads to the shoreline.

As you demonstrate in your picture, there is a graphical inconsistency at the end of the harbour where the ground curves around the corner.  We'd want the harbour to extend to one shore tile.

pak128 docks:



Left harbour is just a train station on a jut of land, as you designed in your example.  I really do like the look of it... and like even more the idea of having a train run right out onto the harbour to transfer cargo.  All we need is a single harbour tile tacked on to that station someplace and we have a really nice looking, fully functional harbour.  Be nice if it was a bit higher, though.  I wonder how it would look if it was raised up on a half-height tile but using a harbour-looking graphic instead of the standard terraformed wall images.

Would love to hear more thoughts on this subject.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 06:32:30 PM by Sarlock »

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2014, 08:04:48 PM »
"You can't terraform in deep water." That message, and indeed the whole raise/lower toolset, demonstrate that Simutrans does know the height or depth of a tile. There's no reason a ship could not be confined to tiles with depth of no more than 1.

Offline Ters

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 08:56:14 PM »
"You can't terraform in deep water." That message, and indeed the whole raise/lower toolset, demonstrate that Simutrans does know the height or depth of a tile. There's no reason a ship could not be confined to tiles with depth of no more than 1.

That's not what I meant. If lakes can be as deep as 5 levels, and I certainly don't want to have to use ocean going vessels to cross a narrow but deep lake, then the ocean would have to be -50 or -100.

Offline prissi

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Re: Problem building docks on lake shores
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 10:17:58 PM »
I think you can built an extension building as harbour. I never tried it though.

If not working, adding something like a harbour extension (which is just a flat station) should not be too hard. This (and tunnel) are two stuff which really needs to be sorted out before the next release.