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Author Topic: Bridge (tracks only) building problems  (Read 3802 times)

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Offline rrtracker

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Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« on: November 07, 2015, 11:23:56 AM »
May be I didn't find the correct building option in the new pak128, but I already read a lot bug reports and couldn't find a similar report.
Therefore I would like to open a new one.

I added a screenshot with all my tries to show what is working and what fails.

Any hint to solve my problem is highly appreciated!! ;-)

1.) System specs (CPU, memory, graphics, sound, operating system, preferred screen resolution):

AMD FX(tm)-8350 Eight-Core, 16 GB, NVIDIA GeForce GT 630,  Linux  x86_64, OpenSUSE 13.2 with latest patches, Kernel 3.16.7,
Latest NVIDIA driver 340.93-36.1, no fixed screen resolution

2.) Simutrans version:

120.1.1, Latest PAK128-2.5.3 (minor changes), downloaded 2015-11-07.
But also tried with pak128-2.5.2

3.) Description of the found problem:

No track can be build on the double high slope tiles.

Bridges which are build to half high tracks are too low to be passed by a
second orthogonal track. Feature??

No rail bridge can be build to cross a road/track.

Road bridges work well at half slope, double slope tiles and crossing tracks/roads.

4.) How can this problem be reproduced?

Every time PAK128 is used, indenpendent of starting a new games with the present version or
by using an old saved game

5.) What did you/the game do when the problem occurred? n.d.

6.) Effect on gameplay of the found problem? Game not playable, I'm afraid...

7.) Did you discover a workaround for the problem? NO. :-(

8.) Severity of the problem/urgency to fix it?

High, since 128PAK can not be played at all if your are not able to pass tracks/roads...

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 04:48:40 PM »
Correct, rails cannot be placed on double (normal)-height slopes, only on the single (half) height slopes.  The theory is that the grade is too high and the trains cannot climb the hill.


Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2015, 05:09:04 PM »
Quote
No track can be build on the double high slope tiles.

Bridges which are build to half high tracks are too low to be passed by a
second orthogonal track. Feature??
Working as intended. In pak128 the slopes are half-height. This means that ways occupy 2 levels, the one they are built on and the one directly above. Rails are also limited to only changing 1 layer at a time, simulating that in real life rails have very bad traction so can only go up shallow inclines.

The solution is to use artificial slopes/walls to raise the ground level by 1 so that a bridge raises it by another giving the necessary 2 levels of clearance.

Road ways generally do allow 2 level changes so should not suffer such a problem.

Quote
No rail bridge can be build to cross a road/track.

Road bridges work well at half slope, double slope tiles and crossing tracks/roads.
Same problem as above, rails just cannot change 2 levels at once. You need to use artificial wall/slope so that it changes 2 levels over 2 tiles to get the desired clearance. This is fidgety and feels a bit unpolished but once you get the hang of it should be easy enough.

Quote
Effect on gameplay of the found problem? Game not playable, I'm afraid...
That is a bit harsh... It is perfectly playable if you use artificial slope/wall to raise the ground elevation to give the appropriate clearance.

Quote
7.) Did you discover a workaround for the problem? NO. :-(
The work around is to use artificial slope/wall to raise the ground elevation to give the appropriate clearance.

Quote
8.) Severity of the problem/urgency to fix it?

High, since 128PAK can not be played at all if your are not able to pass tracks/roads...
Except you can pass roads. First approach is to dig down 2 levels with artificial wall/slope and tunnel under them. Second approach is to use artificial wall/slope to cut away 2 levels under the road and then use elevated road to bridge the road gap with ground rails through the cutting (cheaper than tunnel). The final approach is to raise the ground level on the run up to the road by either 1 or 2 levels and then bridge or elevated way over the road.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2015, 06:38:17 PM »
As DrSuperGood explained, all of this is intended.

As you said, you are not the first one to report these features as bugs, there is a great confusion for pak128 players who tries to go on half height releases (2.5.0 and higher), for several reasons: the habit of plain height versions, building tools not clear to beginners regarding half heights "why should I terraform to build a bridge or tunnel since these are made to avoid terraforming ??? ", terrain generator clearly not adapted to half heights (generates only half heights slopes unless having roughness set to a very high level, so it makes unclear the duality of half/plain slopes by showing only one of the two).

I'm making a small tutorial in the pak128 section, linked with the download, to explain how to make bridges and tunnels and how all of this works.

Thanks for you report, I hope we helped you.

Offline Aquin

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2015, 06:45:47 PM »
It would be nice if the bridge builder could automatically build a 2 tiles long ramp for railroad bridges. This can be done by automatic  terraforming of the secon tile of the ramp. An optically nicer solution would be if there was a specially designed piece of bridge for that, which could be derived from the sloped elevated way.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 06:47:24 PM »
I agree with you, this could be an extension request of the game itself.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 08:53:57 PM »
Good comments.  We should work on a better system in game to explain to users why their bridge/tunnel failed to build "the slope is not steep enough to build a tunnel - use a steeper slope" "a bridge must be built 2 levels or higher above the ground" "this railway type cannot be built on steep slopes".

Offline rrtracker

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2015, 10:39:54 AM »
OK, I got it!

Many thanks to all - especially to DrSuperGood & gauthier - for their comments.
And yes, the half slope idea & track idea is a really good one !! And yes, a somehow improved "error" message would be could for inexperienced users, like me... ;-)
But one consequence of the half slopes is a more "ground demanding" building since you always need two tiles to climb or descend, since you have to reach "full" height to build a tunnel or to pass a barrier, isn't it?

At the final end I personally would prefer if the (automatically) terrain building consists of both slopes (which was already discussed/mentioned in this threat). If this would be a pak128 or game related item I do not know, since I have (again) not enough programming knowledge...

Thanks again to all for their explanations. And now I will give pak128 a try...  ;-)


Offline gauthier

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Re: Bridge (tracks only) building problems
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2015, 11:30:42 AM »
Quote
But one consequence of the half slopes is a more "ground demanding" building since you always need two tiles to climb or descend, since you have to reach "full" height to build a tunnel or to pass a barrier, isn't it?
Indeed, this is fully intended, it makes the task not-too-easy for the player, and can eventually make some ways preferable to others. For example, at least for now, suspended monorails can still be built on steep slopes so it can be a good choice in a city built on a rough landscape.

Quote
At the final end I personally would prefer if the (automatically) terrain building consists of both slopes (which was already discussed/mentioned in this threat). If this would be a pak128 or game related item I do not know, since I have (again) not enough programming knowledge...
Terrain generating is part of the game itself. The other difficulty regarding this is that slopes'height policy change from one pakset to another. Some paksets have double height slopes instead of half height for example.

I'm posting a tutorial in pak128 section, if you read it, I would be pleased to have some coments on it.