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Author Topic: Trying :)  (Read 3230 times)

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Offline vzrenggamani

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Trying :)
« on: January 17, 2016, 04:43:37 AM »
Wow,, I Very Like This Simutrans Version :) Many Unexpected Features, But Only Few Pakset Avaliable :(
When Other Pakset Will Come tho Simutrans Experimental ??
.
And Is Indonesia Trasnlation For Simutrans Experimental still avaliable ?

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 10:05:34 AM »
When Other Pakset Will Come tho Simutrans Experimental ??

As soon as someone decides to create and maintain a fork of a pakset. But those who work on paksets without experimental version likely have enough to do, don't count on them to do it. Rather, the best way to get something done is doing it yourself ;)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 11:24:30 AM »
There is a Swedish pakset for Experimental being worked on, and possibly a fork of a Czeslovakian pakset. I am not sure about an Indonesian translation - have you looked at the Simutranslator site?

Offline vzrenggamani

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 11:59:05 AM »
There was an early attempt to make an Experimental version of Pak192.Comic, but this was discontinued for some reason.

Ouh... Okay... For now time to waiting for other pakset

Rather, the best way to get something done is doing it yourself ;)

Ouh.. How about pak192.comic ? its posibble making forked pak192.comic pakset ?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 12:14:50 PM by vzrenggamani »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 12:03:37 PM »
Ouh.. How about pak192.comic ? its posibble making forked pak192.comic pakset ?

There was an early attempt to make an Experimental version of Pak192.Comic, but this was discontinued for some reason.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 12:54:33 PM »
Yeah, there were some experimental-only parameters in some dats. I suppose it was discontinued because whoever worked on it stopped contributing, as all active members changed over time.

I'd like to have a working experimental-version of the pakset, but I don't have the time to do that as well.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 12:55:58 PM »
Yeah, there were some experimental-only parameters in some dats. I suppose it was discontinued because whoever worked on it stopped contributing, as all active members changed over time.

I'd like to have a working experimental-version of the pakset, but I don't have the time to do that as well.

It's rather a shame, as I rather like the 192.Comic pakset.

Offline Ves

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 02:12:23 PM »
Yes its quite a big challenge to get a full fledged Experiemental pakset to work, especially since the next version of SE will have an enormous amount of changes from the previous one that I guess no one but James fully can overview! However, my suggestion is just to start from a corner and do one thing at a time, and suddenly... tadaa! :-)
Im still in the process of painting the (edit: RAIL-)vehicles (which Im about halfway done I guess...) so I bet the new version of SE will be out before the Swedish pakset...
Im also working on some more dat-file references which hopefully would make it easier to get an overview of what actually can be done in (the next version of) Simutrans Experiemental! Maybe someone could feel inspired? :-)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 04:49:39 PM by Ves »

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 06:43:09 PM »
Both True and False, unfortunately.
Each Project is a series of small steps. But quite often, each step on it's own is worthless unless you keep going.

I started my pak192.comic-involvement as a sidekick, I only planned to contribute a few buildings whenever I was bored. But step for step, trying new stuff out, I was involved in almost everything, and started to plan... well...
Now we actually know what our climates are, what our levels are, I introduced Epochs to categorize the age of buildings, I set up a name formula so Addons could overwrite every single building of one climate without mixing, I redrew almost every way to accomodate for half heights, a project still not quite done. But all of this needs time, and for most of it, if it's not entirely complete it's worthless. You can't have half heights if not every way has half heights. What's the point of structure of system if it isn't used?
So finishing my **** is of highest priority, especially since we don't want to publish sources as long as they are so **** messy.

Adapting for Experimental is similar. I never played Experimental, probably because I don't even play normal Simutrans anymore, so I do not know what's actually required and what's just possible. But if you can't just take a normal pakset and play with it anyway, it will be the same mess - useless until it's done. I can't take another construction site, especially since I don't even often do what I like most about creating a pakset: Just pixeling something. Sometimes this feels more like an unpaid job than a hobby - and then I'm gone for a few month until I really want to do it again. Actually, I think the only reason I still do anything are the other developers. So better hope Flemmbrav does not get a girlfriend any time soon, or it's over :P

Anyway: I don't doubt it's doable, but not if you are already doing other stuff that's kind of more important.

Offline Ves

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2016, 03:20:26 PM »
Yes, in some way you probably are right that if it does not get complete as a whole, each individual small step is worthless. However, I think this would very much depend on what your personal goal is: Is your "goal" the goal itself, or the travel towards the goal?
For me (and I guess others too) there is a mixture of the two "goals", so when focusing on the travel (eg painting), completing the project (eg create .dat-files) feels like a job, and when focusing on the end goal (eg finishing a pakset), all the travels that still needs to be done feels like a job. Like a cyclus repeating itself over and over again.


Offline sdog

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2016, 08:56:24 PM »
In my experience, when starting a project it often helps not to talk too much to others who already succeeded in something similar. The two main reasons are: (1) having an idea how much effort actually is involved is devastating. Compare it to climbing a mountain. When you stand in front of it and start to walk it is towering in front, immeasurably. If at every moment you would see a picture of the whole thing and your size in comparison you have a realistic conception of the task. (2) Learning from other's experience helps to anticipate mistakes. However, knowing too much prevents doing your own mistakes which are required to have your own thing, learn what you are doing and creativity per se. Designing and planing to prevent such mistakes leads to over-engineering and getting bogged down.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2016, 10:13:23 PM »
Over-engineering worked marvellously for Victorian bridges.

I do think, though, that the decision not to make the project open-source immediately is a mistake, however messy the code. It is far easier to get useful ad hoc (or even long-term) contributors if a project is open source. There have been many people who have contributed to Pak128.Britain who would never have done so had that project not been open source. The best way of reducing the workload is by sharing it.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2016, 10:16:47 PM »
Quote
(1) having an idea how much effort actually is involved is devastating. Compare it to climbing a mountain. When you stand in front of it and start to walk it is towering in front, immeasurably. If at every moment you would see a picture of the whole thing and your size in comparison you have a realistic conception of the task.
Except climbing a mountain is easy in comparison to the complexities of software engineering. Even the tallest mountain could be walked up in a few weeks. Large software projects such as operating systems can involve so much effort that it you were to work 24/7 from the day you were born to the day you die it would still not be finished. This is not just software projects, as anything of a large scale can require more work than a single human can ever produce.

Quote
(2) Learning from other's experience helps to anticipate mistakes. However, knowing too much prevents doing your own mistakes which are required to have your own thing, learn what you are doing and creativity per se. Designing and planing to prevent such mistakes leads to over-engineering and getting bogged down.
Knowing mistakes in advance can save a lot of time. In fact humanity has relied on passing on experience since its dawn and is one of the reasons we are where we are today. If you can learn about potential problems in advance then do so. If you encounter any then learn from those as well and be willing to tell others about them.

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Over-engineering worked marvellously for Victorian bridges.
They were engineered to meet requirements with the best of their capabilities at the time. As such they were not over engineered.

Over-engineering only really occurs when there is more money than sense. Specifically military related projects can end up over engineered.

Offline sdog

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 11:10:09 PM »
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Over-engineering worked marvellously for Victorian bridges.
I'd rather think they had very generous safety margins for structural components. I meant over-engineering in a sense that creates complexity needlessly. Those bridges, however, if I remember it correctly, were engineering challenges that exceeded structural requirements.

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Large software projects such as ...
What I said was entirely meant for projects on a scale a single person can overview and if not complete by themselves get started. Of course many large software projects started like that, prime example Linux. In particular learning from past mistakes applies completely differently to a personal project and a 'serious' project. But, no-one is getting the chance to start one, without gaining experience before in different positions. Back to the mountain example, if you want to lead an expedition on K2 you ought have been on it climbing with another expedition. If you are to be the first on a new challenging mountain, you need to have plenty of experience leading expeditions to known mountains etc. I.e, you get your chance to make your mistakes under safer circumstances.



Quote
Over-engineering only really occurs when there is more money than sense. Specifically military related projects can end up over engineered.
Well, the engineering tradition of a certain country is known for anticipating an enormous number of possible and hypothetical problems in a advance. This leads often to very reliable tech, but also at times to overly complex, expensive development fiaskos.

With regard to military projects I'd rather venture that it is not too much money, but not being able to come up with clear and feasible specifications. This delays projects, which gives time for new requirements to be added. Every new general has to put his own ideas to the projects. Government and military customers typically also lack the technical expertise to evaluate technical feasibility of their requests and suggested industry solutions. (Example, when ordering the A400M transport plane it wasn't understood that developing a turbo-prop is much more of a technological challenge than a jet engine, in particular one in which their contractor MTU had no experience whatsoever.)

Offline vzrenggamani

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2016, 01:37:21 PM »
Is posibble making New pakset with size 300 ? oike pak300.Hi ? And can give me some advices ?

Offline Ves

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2016, 02:22:39 PM »
I think the biggest pakset one can create is size 255.
There is a great Wiki which tells about almost every aspect of creating a new pakset from scratch. However, I would start by copying an existing pakset folder (does there currently exist a pak255?) and start by paint and write datfile for one thing at a time and import it to the game.
Create Png-files
Create Dat-files
Compile Pak-files

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2016, 02:42:28 PM »
Since there is no pakset bigger than 192, it is unlikely that anyone ever reliably tested it other then the occasional oversized plane or ship - which by the way works with sizes beyond 255.
In theory, the tilesize should be only limited by variable-size, as too big graphics likely lead to overflow. AFAIK this was the case with 192 when it was first worked on, and the game adapted to it for the pak size.

Offline vzrenggamani

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Re: Trying :)
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2016, 02:46:52 PM »
wow, I am really surprised..
And what i do now is waiting...