The International Simutrans Forum

 

Author Topic: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)  (Read 1308 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline accord2 pt

  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Languages: EN, PT
Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« on: March 30, 2018, 03:26:34 PM »
I have connected a fishery, to a fishing port to a fish shop (idk the name). It worked fine for one year but now the fishery stopped producing. There is no workers shortage, everything is connected. I have noticed that in my previous games this also happens. What am I doing wrong? How do you build successful goods lines?  :-[ This a so basic question I'm embarrassed.

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 18583
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2018, 05:32:03 PM »
The fishery will only produce if there is demand at the fishing port; the fishing port will only demand fresh fish if the fishmonger(s) demand fish from the fishing port; and the fishmonger(s) will only demand more fish if customers are visiting their shop(s) to buy the fish that they already have in stock, depleting the stocks. Have you checked for these things?

Offline DrSuperGood

  • Dev Team
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2642
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2018, 06:37:32 PM »
Be aware that for both fishing ports and markets that it might take several game time hours (not real time) for staff to arrive once they have enough input to operate.

When a factory is not working it will layoff its staff, so the staff will need to be recruited again for it to resume operation. Mechanically this appears to be simulated by stopping commuter generation towards the industry so eventually its staff availability starts to fall towards 0. Once commuters start being generated towards the industry again it takes a while for the staff availability metric to rise.

Be aware that large cities might be so big that staffing internal industries early on may be impossible as commuters from most of the city may not be able to reach the industry in time. Late game it may only be possible with high speed transport services such as subways and trams.

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 18583
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2018, 06:54:12 PM »
Be aware that large cities might be so big that staffing internal industries early on may be impossible as commuters from most of the city may not be able to reach the industry in time. Late game it may only be possible with high speed transport services such as subways and trams.

This last paragraph is incorrect: the size of cities are not relevant. The passenger generation system has no concept of cities: only of individual buildings and journey times.

The first two paragraphs are correct, however.

Offline DrSuperGood

  • Dev Team
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2642
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2018, 07:06:35 PM »
Quote
This last paragraph is incorrect: the size of cities are not relevant. The passenger generation system has no concept of cities: only of individual buildings and journey times.
James it is correct... At least from black box in game testing.

Once a city becomes very large industries that used to always be staffed when the city was small will start to have staff problems to the point they stop producing due to a lack of staff. If this was based on locality to the industry, which it should be, this would never happen. Instead this points towards staff generation being uniform across an entire area, an area larger than the walk time towards the industry. Hence as the city grows more staff will spawn too far away to commute to the industry and eventually a city will reach a size where without sophisticated fast modern transport it is no longer possible to staff the industry at all.

I am experiencing this with some fishing ports on the server game. They used to always be staffed early game yet as the city grew they start to experience staffing problems, to the point they may be without sufficient staff for several game months at a time, with full input storages and empty output storages. Similar situation with some market places which cannot sell goods due to a lack of staff as a result of the city growing.

Now it may not be mechanically what is going on. But that is what it looks like to the user.

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 18583
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2018, 07:15:36 PM »
There is a difference between what you observe is happening and what the cause of what you observe is. In so far as you claim to describe the cause, the claim is false: I know, because I wrote the code that implements the passenger generation mechanics.

In order to try to understand the issue in question, I need to understand more about the raw data without the (incorrect) conclusions as to what is causing the problem. Stating incorrect causal mechanisms in threads discussing how best to connect to industries is also likely to cause players to take incorrect action by inferring things from false premises.

May I suggest that you start a separate thread about this with the detailed empirical observations but without the incorrect claims as to the causative mechanisms so that this can be explored fully without interfering with this thread asking for help with how to connect to industries?

Offline accord2 pt

  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Languages: EN, PT
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2018, 09:23:01 PM »
And how do I make fish being consumed? Fishmonger is served by bus and train. has 705 visitors last game years and only has a consumption of 2 :/

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 18583
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2018, 09:49:51 PM »
Have you identified that the issue is that the fishmonger having a full input buffer ("stockroom")? When you refer to the fishmonger "hav[ing] a consumption of 2", to what are you referring exactly - the base consumption, or the actual number of units consumed in a given period (and, if the latter, to what period are you referring)?

It is difficult to assist without much more detailed information.

Offline accord2 pt

  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Languages: EN, PT
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2018, 08:20:11 AM »
Sorry. It has stored 20 fish and consumes 2 fish per month. and +700 visitors per year.

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 18583
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2018, 11:58:57 AM »
That equates to 58.33 visitors per game month, or per 6.4 game hours. One in game unit of fish (a "crate") is 480kg. This would suggest that, on each visit, each consumer is purchasing 8kg of fish, which is a great deal. (We might imagine that 3/4 of the weight of the fish in the crates is a combination of the crates themselves and ice to keep the fish fresh).

Neither of these figures (58 visitors to a fishmonger in 6.4 hours, nor customers purchasing 8kg (or, after adjustment, 2kg)) of fish each on average seems to be too low. The trouble may be simply that there are not enough fishmongers connected to the fishing port. The relative lack of consumer industries is a known issue that it is planned to investigate and rectify when the town growth feature is implemented in the future.

Offline accord2 pt

  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Languages: EN, PT
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2018, 03:27:48 PM »
Thanks James! Maybe one day you can add that data to the game  ;)

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 18583
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2018, 03:38:17 PM »
When you refer to "that data", to which data are you referring in particular?

Offline accord2 pt

  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Languages: EN, PT
Re: Help with industry (or is it broken atm?)
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2018, 04:13:29 PM »
The "That equates to 58.33 visitors per game month, or per 6.4 game hours. One in game unit of fish (a "crate") is 480kg." data when you pass the mouse over the shop page