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Author Topic: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1  (Read 625 times)

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Offline Andarix

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Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« on: December 01, 2019, 06:23:17 PM »
Aircraft fly too low and hang on the ships

Simutrans 120.4.1
pak128.Britain

Network game


Offline prissi

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2019, 11:32:02 AM »
They can only hang if there are more than 126 objects on a tile (so an object cannot enter the next tile). But then they will hang before tile with that many objects. So far nobody achieved that many ships on one tile, you are the first.

Offline Andarix

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 08:33:33 AM »
The ships are not mine. It's the pak128.Britain network game.

1.193‬ ships for this station, if I looked right


That's just the problem, if minimum charge is set without maximum waiting time. Then stations are blocked permanently.

A lot of messages about blocked vehicles are strongly affecting performance. The game is only running in slow motion. It should be changed here from vehicle message to line message (if line set). On one of the lines there are 776 ships in this case.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 06:26:05 PM »
Get the server admin to modify the line. This can be done by logging into and playing as the public service provider player and then changing into the other locked player slot. This bypasses the password check allowing the server administrator the ability to modify and manipulate the player's assets. They could then order all vehicles on the line be withdrawn or set up a minimum wait time.

Offline Andarix

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 12:28:02 AM »
Get the server admin to modify the line. This can be done by logging into and playing as the public service provider player and then changing into the other locked player slot. This bypasses the password check allowing the server administrator the ability to modify and manipulate the player's assets. They could then order all vehicles on the line be withdrawn or set up a minimum wait time.

Such interventions are not necessarily helpful.

I think it's not nice that an airport of mine (which was made public) was completely rebuilt. And it was the very oversized, instead of adapting the traffic to the advent.

It remains the basic problem of the recommendation of minimum charge. But especially in passenger traffic, the stopping places go out, if no maximum waiting time is set and the traffic is one-sided.

In addition, such changes to the timetable can be reversed by the player if he does not accept them.

To do so with a relief line that I had created where the player in question had not yet set a password.

There is also a lack of adequate notification system to convey such interventions to the appropriate player.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2019, 06:08:12 PM »
Passenger traffic is perfectly symmetrical. If it ends up not being so then some company has made a mistake. Mail traffic is not symmetrical, since landmarks and industry generate 3 times as much mail as they receive.

I think the issue being reported here is people not caring. In such case administrator intervention is the only way. Yes one could raise the limit to 254 vehicles per tile, but then topics like this would be created with the same problem but with 254 ships in the tile instead of 126.

Offline Andarix

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2019, 10:27:16 PM »
Passenger traffic is perfectly symmetrical. If it ends up not being so then some company has made a mistake. ....

I think you should look into the current server game from pak128.Britain.

And I have been playing Simutrans for over 10 years and there has never been a symmetrical passenger traffic.
This certainly can not be the case if cities vary in size and have different numbers and types of attractions and monuments.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 12:05:05 AM »
I think you should look into the current server game from pak128.Britain.
I do not need to. I have spent countless hours studying the passenger generation logic in the source code for this very reason. Passenger generation is symmetrical. I have strong black box evidence to support this over countless multiplayer servers where passenger pickup and delivery approached 80-90%.

Asymmetry only occurs in the following conditions...
  • If there is competition over pickup, where one player picks up passengers but the generated return passengers head towards another player due to routing logic. There should be mechanics in place to prevent and only select the inverse route to the one taken, however since current routes are not saved with each ware packet this can change at every transfer and so result in a different path being used for return passengers than what was used for the main passengers. Experienced this, along with some others on this list, in response to a troll parasitizing some of the cities I serviced and shipping via the same public transfer station.
  • If a player leaves their passengers stranded at a transfer. Transfers have as good as infinite capacity for passengers, and so nothing stops a company from being evil and not shipping all their passengers away from a transfer. In theory the passenger flow is still symmetric, just one direction is being blocked at one of the transfers due to a bottleneck. The record I have seen was on a pak128 server game early in 2019, so many that it showed a never encountered/observed before display bug which was fixed. This is entirely a company problem, not putting enough capacity on their lines to create a bottleneck. One can prevent this by preventing transfers over overcrowded stops, stopping such insane passenger build up in the first place.
  • I recall passengers only spawning if their source has an uncrowded stop, but not caring if their destination has one. In such a case passengers may be generated but their return traffic might not be. Again this is entirely a company problem for bottlenecking passengers.
This certainly can not be the case if cities vary in size and have different numbers and types of attractions and monuments.
It is because for every passenger generated, one gets generated in return. Specifically to keep passengers symetric. They are the easiest traffic to shift full loads of in both directions of a route and have as good as perfect symmetry.

Mail is inherently not symmetrical because attractions and industry send out 3 times as much as they receive and so cities with fewer weight of attractions will end up with less mail heading towards them than leaving.

Offline Ters

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 08:41:47 AM »
Passenger generation is symmetrical. Passenger routing is not.

If there are two or more routes between the source/destination pair that are considered of equal cost, which means primarily the number of transfers, the generated passenger pair may chose different lines. This is not in itself completely unrealistic. However, I have noted a trend that suggests that all passenger going in one direction will consistently pick the same route. This causes vehicles to not have the same load both ways, reducing profitability. (I never use minimum load on passenger lines unless there is so little traffic that even a single vehicle has too much capacity.) Experience has therefore taught me not to make sure that between two stations, there is always one route having less transfers than all the others. This generally means that loops in my networks have an odd number of edges.

Offline Andarix

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Re: Aircraft fly too low - 120.4.1
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 09:58:19 AM »
In multiplayer games it is hardly possible to avoid parallel connections.

And with big maps with many cities it is difficult to keep track. Especially as changes take place in a network game while you are not online. And even if you're online you do not get everything that goes with it.

I would also find it more beautiful if public stations were included in the player's station list. So far, you have to strive for the line management, where these are displayed with.
Since you can not display two station lists at the same time, the option to switch to public players is not very helpful for displaying the public stations.