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Offline ӔO

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Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« on: January 30, 2010, 08:28:39 PM »


3 sets
1st: single deck, but with two different head units.
2nd set: Double decker, since presumably, there will be a new loading gauge if the maglevs require a completely new rail network.
Both passenger versions are 25m long and 3m wide. Single deck is 3.1m tall, double deck is 4.7m tall.

3rd set: freight version capable of carrying 2x 20ft containers, or 1x 45ft container. Enclosed version for loose bulk freight. Unlikely to see a double stack container carrying flatbed/well car since that would make it extremely tall, around 6m tall and I'm unsure as to how much weight maglev can handle. Still haven't made a head/tail unit for this one. Maglev is certainly capable of freight transportation if the network is built to a new loading gauge.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 11:42:53 PM »
added windows and doors.
testing out livery.
made ground level track.

same image, just one with shadows and one without.


Offline The Hood

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 08:52:46 AM »
Looking promising.  I do like the way the maglev trains have British-style yellow cab ends.  I'd say the no shadow version is more like what we are aiming for in pak128.Britain style, although it's difficult to tell without an in-game screenshot.  The liveries look good too, but possibly they look too much like existing train company liveries (Virgin, First and Eurostar).  It might be better to make fictitious liveries up, but in a similar style (e.g. silver and blue, red and gold, green and gold, or whatever else looks good), but that's a minor point.   

As for freight transportation, I'd make a mail, piece and cooled variant, but no bulk/long/livestock/fluids as they just wouldn't need the speed/expense of maglev transport and would stick with roads/conventional rail (a bit like with planes).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 10:52:19 AM by The Hood »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 12:14:55 PM »
thanks for the feedback.

freight:
I was thinking the same thing about freight. Only mail, piece and refrigerated goods. Thought about having a vehicle carrier too, but that would be for when I have a car modelled in sketchup.

Should mail be done with a converted passenger carriage or have its own dedicated freight wagon?


current intention is to make all cars DMU or EMU with freight requiring two head units at each end for a guessed use of ETCS computer driver and brake van.

Liveries:
Do you have any pictures for inspiration? :)
I tried a few different schemes before trying Virgin, First and Eurostar, but they all ended up looking like either the bullet train, ICE3 or transrapid trains.

added:
bulk heads for 2x 1 TEU flatcar
2.25 TEU flatbed car
empty flatbed car
freight head/tail unit
elevated ways
bridge
signals (would be too fast for conventional visual signalling. Maybe something easy to differentiate for the player?)

« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 12:19:08 PM by AEO »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 12:53:04 PM »
I'd do mail looking like a passenger carriage but with no windows.  I'd also be tempted to do freight that way rather than as containers, as the sort of freight maglev would attract would be low volume high value (think DHL/FedEx) rather than containerised.

Liveries: I would try using the schemes you have and just changing one of the colours so they are less obviously the corporate schemes.  So replace red with blue or green on the virgin one, replace blue with red/green on the first one, and maybe replace white with black on the eurostar. Just see what looks good.

Signals: Yes it's true that conventional signalling would never work on maglev systems (even high speed lines require in cab signalling).  However I think signals need to be able to display to the player what aspect they are.
, e.g. they do need to be visual.  They would probably need to look like conventional light signals as for railways, even though that's not what they would look like in real life.

Offline TheMacpau

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 12:58:34 PM »
Loving the new graphics. I agree that there probably doesn't need to be a bulk transporter on the maglev rail; especially since it would neccesarily be uneconomical with the appropriate speed bonuses.  Are you planning on restricting the layout/length of the trainset; I think that maglev trains would probably have a fully distributed drive system and allow for crazy length trains in theory.

Here's to my future 400kph double decker 20 carriage train. TGV eat your heart out :-D

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 05:06:16 PM »
These look very promising! But, hmm, if we're having Maglev, perhaps some thought should be given to futuristic vehicles of other types, too, to keep things going until 2050 or so...? 1750-2050 would be 300 years of Pak128.Britain wonderfulness!

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 08:20:19 PM »
@Hood
gotcha, I'll try them in different colours but same scheme.
For freight cars, there's also the red/blue car, which is a full cowl, streamlined carriage for various freight needing high speed that can also fit the containers. Of course, the doors on it would have to be transparent to see anything inside it. The open top flatbed cars, I was thinking for a slower speed.

I'll probably need some inspiration for slightly futuristic looking signals. For now at least, there is the arrow signals on the track.

@macpau
hmm, I was thinking of just making it possible for any length, but require both head units. which would be consistent with the other EMU/DMU trains in pakbritain. It'll be interesting to see what the dat files will limit me to.

@james
actually, I also made a futuristic airplane addon in pak128, but made it to 192 pixel size, so it looks ok in pakbritain as well, minus the colour.

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 11:49:20 PM »
new liveries, one new cooled car, that I don't think turned out too well.
duplex is imitation A4 aero scheme
royal post colour scheme for mail train, maybe make doors wider on it.
top left corner is example of signals.
might need a new texture for the concrete rail sections.



Offline The Hood

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 09:04:04 AM »
Yes, those new liveries are great.  For the duplex though, give it yellow cab ends again, and make the back the same as the front.  Nice idea about imitating the LNER A4 though!  Mail train doors probably should be a bit wider as you say.

I like your idea for signals, but as with everything, we need to see it in game before we can make a final decision.  I think it looks nice and futuristic in that style, but I'm just worried they won't look great on slopes.    Maybe we'll just have to live with that!  Maybe you should spend some time getting it all in game (and I'll warn you getting the tracks and bridges right in the game will take some time) and seeing how it looks there before going back and making refinements?

Stations: We'll need some of those, and probably in a nice shiny modern look.  I could probably adapt some of the existing ones for a consistent look, but I'd need the tracks and trains ready first.  A depot is even more crucial though (no depot = no trains!).  Maybe just recode the existing rail ones as maglev ones for starters though?

Convoy lengths: I reckon the best solution is like for current IC125s: require an end unit at each end with unlimited carriages in between.  AFAIK maglevs are essentially powered by magnets in the track and train rather than motors, so each car should be a "power" car (if one car didn't have magnets, it would fall back onto the track surely?).  This should mean no difference in acceleration with more cars, which would be analogous to fully distributed drive systems on conventional trains.

@jamespetts:
It's always been the plan for pak128.Britain to go to 2050 so of course we will eventually need futuristic vehicles in all other modes (see the todo list).  I'd left maglevs and future transport well down the list to concentrate on getting 1750-2010 sorted first (no mean task!), but if other people are doing stuff on my to-do list of sufficient quality and in style then I'll include it as soon as it's ready.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 03:50:51 PM by The Hood »

Offline VS

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 09:41:39 AM »
Just an idea.... if it's supposed to be so fast, maybe the container cars could have some kind of cover? Containers sure don't feel very aerodynamic :P

Offline TheMacpau

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 09:58:26 AM »
As a quick question is the stepped bit on the front of the double leveled train intended?

How optimistic are you going to be about the future of Britains rail transport, devolpment wise, because lets be honest we're not likely to be rolling (ed:floating?) out our own maglev any time soon ;-). What kind of introduction dates would you be looking at i.e 2030's-2040's?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 10:40:07 AM »
For freight I think the containers should be dropped in favour or something that looks like the post train but in a different livery.  I still can't imagine containers on maglevs, but even if they were some streamlined casing would be a good idea.

I'd be 95% certain there won't be any Maglev's in Britain before 2030 (especially as we seem to be going down the High Speed Rail route and Maglev options were rejected in 2007), but this is a game and the fun part is making your own decisions rather than letting the government make them for you!  After all in the current pak you can already use the BR 8XP and the APT much more than it ever got used in real life.  I'd allow maglevs like this one in pak128.Britain from 2004 (i.e. when the Chinese built their Transrapid link, which is probably the closest parallel).  We could also allow a more basic magev from 1984, as there was one between Birmingham International and Birmingham airport for about 10 years (distance 600m, top speed 26mph!).

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 09:35:34 PM »
@The Hood
The stations currently in pakbritain should work, when making the maglev doors, I took into consideration the tall platform heights and used those numbers as a guideline.

@VS
there are streamlined freight cars in there, just has some transparent textures on it so you can see inside, for now, but I painted one in plain colour as well.

@TheMacpau
Yes, the double deck is intended to have a stepped section. Intended as an observation deck on one floor and driver in the other.

@The Hood
I based my maglev ideas on Inductrack, which has type 1 that is better suited for high speed and type 2 that is better suited for slow and heavy. There are plans in parts of USA for a shore to sorting yard maglev 'conveyor belt' sort of system. I also hear that a few middle east countries were more interested in the freight variant of Transrapid for a high speed ore/gem rock transporter.
I wasn't sure which head unit you meant, so I put yellow on both.

added:
two different tunnels, one conventional circular, one hexagonal.
details- supports on tracks
T-column, upside down V-column and I-column for elevated ways so they don't look like they interfere with roads or rails underneath.
computer operated head unit (for slower containers)

changed:
slightly tweaked painting lines so the look smoother, less angular and jagged.
doors 50% wider on mail train
changed colour of freight trains to dark slate/goldish







as for the operating speeds, general guess
1st gen passenger: 480 to 540km/h
2nd gen passenger: 680 to 720km/h

high speed Freight with fairings: 320km/h
slow freight: 160km/h (just slightly faster than rail)

theoretical maximum is 1150km/h, but there would be a lot of noise complaints at those speeds.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:40:24 PM by AEO »

Offline TheMacpau

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 09:56:03 PM »
I'd suggest you'd better stick to the lower end of the speeds, surely you want to leave some space for air travel to compete. High speed rails is currently competitive in the 2-3 hour travel zone; but pushing to 540-720kph would nullify ones airports. Unless thats what we are intending for the game.

Are you thinking two types of track like the maglev in 128 or one type with different rolling(ed:floating) stock.

ps. love the british racing green tone you use there

pps. is rolling out and rolling stock still the correct term for a vehicle without wheels? answers on a postcard.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 11:29:58 PM »
thanks for feedback.

@TheMacpau
the tracks plans would be:
ground level track
elevated track (for diagonal, perpendicular or parallel crossing on rail)
elevated track (for perpendicular or diagonal crossing of roads)
bridge
tunnel
with various 'electrification?' magnetization types that will govern speeds.


when talking about pak128, do you mean the monorail it has? as far as I'm aware, it's just that one track is elevated and one is not.

or do you mean something like this: http://boeblingen.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/iat-team-modellkonzept-doppelstockige-magnetbahn/
with two levels on the same track? the latter is possible to draw, but there will be no double deck and I'm unsure if simutrans allows two separate tracks with the same way type on a single tile.

maybe for a commuter style maglev, monorail can be used?

Maglev will certainly replace air travel, but the current limitations that keep an extensive maglev network from replacing existing airports are land rights, construction costs and noise pollution of having a high speed train operate in an urban environment.

In game terms Airports and airplanes still make sense because there's no need for an expensive bridge or tunnel.
airplanes are still faster, the modern commercial airliners go at around 950km/h. and there are future concept jets that can take you anywhere in the world in 30mins, which is supposed to be around 4250~7160km/h.

Offline TheMacpau

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 11:36:54 PM »
Thats a good point but there is going to be a tricky balance between the (usually) suburbian airport and the (usually) central train station if you upgrade your rail to maglev. carefull balancing might be requred to leave a niche for both. While accepting your comments on tunnels and bridges, I know I'm prone to doing some serious earth moving in game to avoid such projects. I guess the killer will be the capacity, will they compete with the mass transit of A380 type planes? or be more like executive jets in capacity. As for the pak128 I was referring to the gauthier(sp) addon for maglev where he uses 3 types of track in the same way that there are different speeds of regular track.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 11:45:31 PM »
I don't think that multiple electrification types are necessary, and might add unnecessary complexity. I suggest simply having two grades of track: low speed (for the airport type systems) and high speed (for the high-speed links).

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 11:55:32 PM »
@TheMacpau
I'll have to find that addon, should be inspirational.

I would guess the maglevs will replace domestic flights almost entirely once a complete network is built and will replace most EU region flights once an EU network is built. Much like the opening of the Chunnel effectively ended the SR.N4 hovercraft's life in 2000.

@james

that can be done as well
I was thinking about the amount of icons that would dominate the construction panel when having 2 full sets of railways.

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2010, 12:23:46 AM »
Perhaps the first generation would not be fast enough to compete with aircraft except for shorter distances, but the second generation would be?

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2010, 05:40:56 AM »
For freight I think the containers should be dropped in favour or something that looks like the post train but in a different livery.  I still can't imagine containers on maglevs, but even if they were some streamlined casing would be a good idea.

I'd be 95% certain there won't be any Maglev's in Britain before 2030 (especially as we seem to be going down the High Speed Rail route and Maglev options were rejected in 2007), but this is a game and the fun part is making your own decisions rather than letting the government make them for you!  After all in the current pak you can already use the BR 8XP and the APT much more than it ever got used in real life.  I'd allow maglevs like this one in pak128.Britain from 2004 (i.e. when the Chinese built their Transrapid link, which is probably the closest parallel).  We could also allow a more basic magev from 1984, as there was one between Birmingham International and Birmingham airport for about 10 years (distance 600m, top speed 26mph!).
yep the only first maglev i remember at birmingham airport (latter replaced with cable train)

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2010, 05:45:53 AM »
I'll have to find that addon, should be inspirational.

I would guess the maglevs will replace domestic flights almost entirely once a complete network is built and will replace most EU region flights once an EU network is built. Much like the opening of the Chunnel effectively ended the SR.N4 hovercraft's life in 2000.


the channel tunnel opened in 1995 that year the hovercrafts ended but still has hovercraft its at the port in dover had one (we didn't see the hovercraft) but its called hoverferry - i think wiki had link to that company but freight increased again because channel fire and problems in channel tunnel - only used normal ferry
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 07:02:33 AM by rsdworker »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2010, 07:00:42 AM »
@rsdworker
that part wasn't on wiki  ;)
still, I read that cross-channel freight ships declined in numbers thanks to the chunnel.


one final bit before I start making all the renders to test them out in-game.
added:
track end piece
restaurant/buffet car for each set
depot.

changed:
colour sorted open car freight, no double stack
matched colour of freight cars with fairing of head unit.


Offline The Hood

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2010, 09:02:12 AM »
Excellent progress, can't wait for some in-game tests!  I propose the following scheme for tracks (not trying to shut down discussion here, but given my experience of developing the pak this is how I see it fitting in best):

1st generation (1984 onwards): Max speed 100km/h.  Ignore this for now if you want.
2nd generation (2004 onwards): Max speed 450km/h.
3rd generation (2030 onwards): Max speed 600km/h.  Again ignore for now if you want.

Code all of these as tracks, and do not include electrification - the simpler the better (fewer icons and fewer confused players).  Code all trains as battery powered (i.e. will run without electrification).

The high speeds will allow an improvement on conventional high speed rail and competition with short-medium air traffic. 
Capacities should be comparable to, but slightly higher than trains of a similar length as the cars should be wider (and the duplex even more so).  This ought to make a long duplex train hold ~1000 people.  Maglevs really only ought to be viable on very large passenger flows with an intense service in the game (construction costs will be high too).  Commuter maglevs would broadly fit into the same scheme given the rapid acceleration of maglev trains, although a slightly cheaper 300kmh track may also be an option for later.

I know this doesn't capture all the complexities of different types of maglev systems and every nuance of speed restrictions, but we need to start simple and I think a scheme like this will fit best with the game balance.  There will still be a place for conventional rail to 2050 (both suburban and high speed) so we need to make sure that maglev doesn't end up being too similar.  There are also plans to use the monorail type for low-speed urban mass transit monorail systems.


Offline TheMacpau

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2010, 11:06:01 AM »
I think they use "hydrogen" aka fuel cell as a type of power unit in pak128 along with steam and diesel so it could be an idea to use that, it would fit with the futuristic concept better than a classical battery imho.

Alternatively you could have 600kph tracks released from 1984 but only have 100kph "electrification" until 2004 and then only 450kph till 2030. This would save on making multiple track types and might make the gameplay better if your using raised track since I dread upgrading a fully kitted network if I can't just overlay new track and I could upgrade by replacing the magnets/electrification system.

@hood how would you suggest preventing maglev from wiping out long distance air/all air? or do you think that's a long term inevitability that should be part of the game. (I guess long distance depends on the map size you play somewhat)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2010, 11:27:05 AM »
1) hydrogen is no better than battery, it makes no difference as neither is correct for a maglev train, and it makes no difference to the game engine, so I don't think it matters which is used.

2) It is possible to replace one track type with a faster track type by overlaying already.  Electrification adds complexity and isn't necessary, so I prefer the battery/hydrogen approach.  Especially as laying track is one click, track + electrification is two; and electrification requires extra buttons too...

3) Construction cost would be a big factor.  Airports are already established.  Maglevs would be competetive to run, but very costly to build.  They would also probably be marginally slower, and obviously require lots of land take to build which air doesn't require except at airports.  It would be a player choice decision...

Offline TheMacpau

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2010, 11:30:20 AM »
1)Fair point on the first I was just commenting on the name battery just sounds incongruous, a very minor issue.
2) is that true for elevated track, which was my point, because I know it's not true for bridges and tunnels.
3) is a fair point that I accept. :-)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2010, 04:29:58 PM »
There is always the possibility of hijacking either "hydrogen" or "battery" (preferably battery, as there have been no commercially successful battery operated transport vehicles in the UK apart from milk floats of which I am aware) and changing the name in the translation texts to "maglev". How is this done in Pak128, anyway?

As to costs: the construction costs should be very, very high (for the higher speed lines especially), but the running costs should be extremely low, as there are no moving parts: this is one of the key attractions of the low-speed maglevs. The vehicle purchase costs should not be too high, either, since maglev vehicles are essentially quite simple.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 04:43:34 PM »
Good idea about renaming battery as maglev.  Hydrogen fuel cell is already in use for one of the buses I think.

@TheMacpau, I'm not sure about elevated tracks and bridges, but given 1st generation maglevs are barely going to be worth it in the game (replicating the fact that the Birmingham Maglev folded after 10 years), I don't think you'll have much to worry about in terms of replacing things.

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2010, 06:10:39 PM »
James: Pak128 has schewebebahn instead of monorail, so it renames monorail to hanging rail (or some similar name). It works. You can use the trick safely, too :)

Edit: attached the file for upload to Translator.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 06:14:49 PM by VS »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2010, 09:34:57 PM »
ok, so going from the feedback, for the dat files it will be battery engine type for all cars.

introduction will be roughly...
2004: gen2: teal/grey passenger (450km/h)
2012: dark blue/beige passenger (520km/h), royal mail (450km/h) and streamlined freight (320km/h)
2016: economical open car freight (160km/h)
2021: Duplex passenger (560km/h)

ground level track construction costs around 4~8x of TGV tracks and elevated tracks around 5~10x the costs of TGV tracks, but similar maintenance costs.
cars themselves around 18,000~30,000 credits.
minimum length of cars for passenger variants, 3?

oh, and minor change, cars are slightly wider now. from 3m to 3.75m

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2010, 09:42:58 PM »
Sounds good.  Bear in mind current costs aren't fixed, but we can always modify dat files later.  For the passenger trains, I'd code constraints so that you have to have at least 1 middle car, so minimum of three cars.

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2010, 07:35:42 PM »
progress update:
all images are done in 256 tile size and needs to be scaled down
need to do dat files
need to make icons and cursors for all image sets

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2010, 11:26:32 PM »
tracks are working.

still need to do dat files for depot, tunnel, stations, signals and freight trains (in particular the freight image associations), but all the passenger and mail are done.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 11:36:36 PM by AEO »

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Re: Maglev in pakbritain size (work in progress)
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2010, 06:14:21 AM »
still needs lots of polishing, but otherwise, it looks like this in game