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Offline VS

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Metro - as tram or train?
« on: February 15, 2010, 03:20:10 PM »
Where does metro belong? Should it be grouped with trains or with trams? Possible reasons: speed, capacity, combination with other networks...

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 03:28:41 PM »
In reality I'd think it's grouped with trams. In current Simutrans version I don't know what will fit better.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 03:30:02 PM »
I would say they are closest to trains, because of their aspect and general working. Indeed, I understand them as high capacity low speed trains.
Anyway, I would understand they fit better in Simutrans as trams, because the tram depots are much less busy than trains', because they're quite smaller than other simutrans trains.

So, I understand it's more important that it fits well in the game rather than keeping realism at any price. That's because my vote will go to trams, unless I find a good reason to change mi mind.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 03:35:33 PM »
I've got a similar problem with pak128.Britain.  Logically they should go as trains I think, as most metro trains aren't capable of street-running (not that simutrans prevents trains from running on tram tracks anyway, so that point is academic).  It's probably in the train depot where most people would look for them first.

The flip side is they have speed characteristics of trams, so for speed bonus balancing later in the game slow metro trains must have very low costs to remain profitable if a different speed bonus curve is used for tram and train...  That's one reason why I put the DLR trains as tram vehicles in pak128.Britain.  London Underground (when I get round to doing them) would probably remain as trains, as they are still pretty "heavy rail" compared to "light rail" trams...

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 03:49:14 PM »
I see metros as underground trains with high capacity and low speed, as Zeno said above. It's true that some metro systems are on surface, but in that case they would fit directly in tram or monorail cathegories.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 03:58:48 PM by vilvoh »

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 05:38:58 PM »
I see them as local transport, like trams, so I voted tram. :)

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 05:47:26 PM »
Similar viewpoint as The Hood - I think of trams depot as light rail, whether or not they are street running, trains are heavy rail of any speed. Having underground in train depot means that speed bonuses are more of a factor too.

Offline z9999+

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 06:12:14 PM »
This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 06:52:03 PM »
Our system here is built (in an unusual fashion I might add) so that the gauge is the same between trams/streetcar and metro/subway.
the thing that separates them is the electrification and platform height.
Both are capable of similar speeds, but the tram has more stops and on street congestion to deal with, so they are slower.

the only thing that separates trams/metro from a train in most other countries is weight and curve radii, since the track gauge is shared.

Offline Junna

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 08:14:14 PM »
It's true that some metro systems are on surface, but in that case they would fit directly in tram or monorail cathegories.

Not really, they are for all intents and purposes normal railways?

The only exception to this is the operation of trams in short underground tunnels in city centres and with dedicated tracks, but those are not true metros, but generally thought of as "light rail" or "light metro". Even an entirely above-ground or ground-level metro would by all means be considered a normal railway and not a tram, or a monorail... if only simutrans had incorporated any elevated viaduct sections, which I don't think any major paks do (yet).

They are local transport, it is true, but this is not really something unique to trams. Metros generally have larger service areas than trams, generally filling a niche between outright commuter railway service and trams and buses, or, occasionally, as in Seoul, also being a commuter railway.

So naturally, I don't think it can be anything but train, despite how this makes the speed bonus thingy difficult. Most of my metro systems have an average speed of about 50-60 km/h (-ex), and generally speaking despite a 7.00/km maint. on a train and short journeys, they generally do run a profit (even when not much else does!)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 08:27:01 PM »
I voted for trams for several reasons, most of them already expressed:
- local transport vs medium/long distance
- possibility of mixed networks going underground in the city centre
- train depot already crammed, more rail tracks and tunnels (to come), whereas trams don't have tunnels so far and their depot is half empty

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2010, 09:06:30 PM »
is it possible to just rename "tram depot" to "light rail depot" or "light commuter rail depot"?

a sort of modern version of narrow gauge, but one important aspect is that light rail trains should be able to run on standard rail.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2010, 11:43:36 PM »
I voted for trains - regardless of it could own category because it is mix between trains and trams. But writing another type of transportation is not easy.

I can't disagree with Junna's experience with underground but in Czech republic they goes faster than trams (difference is about twenty kilometers per hour and may be greater).

Metro is closer to trains - regardless of interior is very close to trams. Stations are often further and units also can go faster than trams, buses or trolleybuses. Webs of their lines are not so dense. Metro trains are longer than most of trams - and also some classical trains on short tracks.

Trams are closer buses - mostly they are limited by other vehicles.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 08:37:02 AM »
Just a thought about train depot windows being cluttered - would it be possible to write a small patch which allowed a different grouping of vehicles into more tabs?  You could then classify a subsection of the train depot as "metro" and another as "intercity" etc. as determined by the pak maintainer.  I'd certainly like something like that.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 09:00:25 AM »
Don't know how difficult/convenient would be this, but I like, and it could be a point to reconsider my opinion...

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 09:14:34 AM »
The Hood: very interesting idea - but I am not sure how would you specify what is intercity when trams go between cities too. So it is only interesting idea. :)

Example from rail web of Czech republic:
Most and Litvínov (north of country; known mainly for large coal mines and near chemical factory) are far about 16 kilometers from each other - and tram goes between them.


But some cities and villages are much closer to each other and train goes between them.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 09:20:22 AM »
@Vaclav,

There would need to be something in the dat file of the vehicle which would say which category it belongs to.  If none exists, put in one of the default categories.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 09:28:41 AM »
Of course - but it needs quite great change of code of game. In dat file it is only one line - but to game could use this, in game code more than one line is needed to add - and change.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 09:53:00 AM »
Just a thought about train depot windows being cluttered - would it be possible to write a small patch which allowed a different grouping of vehicles into more tabs?  You could then classify a subsection of the train depot as "metro" and another as "intercity" etc. as determined by the pak maintainer.  I'd certainly like something like that.

Full support.
And also a "Metro" toolbar -- with their dedicated tracks, tunnels, electrification and, mostly, stations.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2010, 12:28:19 PM »
I maybe wouldn't go as far as to have a separate toolbar - but as long as train, "metro" and tram were all inter-operable (as train and tram are now), it wouldn't matter too much.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2010, 02:01:18 PM »
I maybe wouldn't go as far as to have a separate toolbar -
this would be needed with 5 or more train tracks, 3-4 stations etc...  if we want also 2-3 metro tracks and 3-5 stations.

Offline whoami

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2010, 04:20:11 PM »
Due to speed bonus effect, I think metro should go into trams (lacking an intermediate category).

And this is a real problem, which needs to besolved by changing the program:
This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2010, 04:42:20 PM »
Maybe the best solution is as fabio says for a new intermediate "metro" category with its own set of speed bonuses, depots, high-capacity stations, and low-speed tracks and its own toolbar.  As long as metro can also then run onto heavy rail as well, that would probably get the best of all worlds...

Offline whoami

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2010, 06:05:31 PM »
A separate category means more menue clutter, more objects to paint (stations, track - what about bridges, tunnel entries?), more support cases... And the player should still be able to use them as overground trains (because metro lines appear above ground in reality where available space allows), just as a separate, incompatible system (it would not allow level crossings, for example). This is less player-friendly than the alternatives, I think.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 06:46:44 PM »
Whoami: I think so.

Offline Silver

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2010, 08:56:48 PM »
the metro in my country have 3 tracks on each side, so it's totally different from a train and should not go along with the trains. The green arrows in the picture are the electric power bars of vertically feed. It's similar to that used in Paris

The metro in my city exist on underground, surface level and elevated level

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2010, 09:51:29 PM »
regarding the metro - in holland - there metro but turns to fast tram at suburbs - Line 51 at asterdam - and also there two lines exists on rotterdam - on the red line (latter known as A and B lines) and also line E will be like tram and metro and in asterdam there line 5 with low platforms so trams and metro can be shared
other way in england - metro and train can be shared - newscastle has one such example and in London underground on bakerloo and Met and Disrict line
its could be fit in metro menu so speical rules - Metro and trams and trains can share but the metro can't go on tramway tracks unless its speical equipped - rotterdam has one on A and B lines - wherebouts the metro can use street tracks
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 10:49:24 PM by rsdworker »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2010, 10:17:01 PM »
metro and tram in Toronto uses the same gauge tracks that don't work with any other gauge which includes narrow, standard or broad gauge.
There were plans on using trams in the metro tunnels, but it never happened. Trams are closer to buses in use and metro trains would never be able to cope on the sharp turns the trams have.

but then again, there are also tram-trains, which aside from having low platforms, don't seem very different from a train with their 3+ articulated cars. They are all forms of light rail however.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2010, 07:54:50 AM »
A separate category means more menue clutter,
Not with a separate toolbar, this is why i proposed it
more objects to paint (stations, track - what about bridges, tunnel entries?),
I think this issue came around due to the *will* to have more objects painted.
Anyway, I think that subset should be a feature pak-dependent, so that different paks can choose different implementations, in a healthy competition between ideas.
And the player should still be able to use them as overground trains (because metro lines appear above ground in reality where available space allows)
In subway toolbar could be mostly tunnels, with only one overground "service" track (for depots and starting tunnels) with low speed and high maintainance. But overground they could merge and interoperate with normal heavy rail system.

Offline VS

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2010, 10:51:04 PM »
Looking at the comments, it seems that votes for trains are based on perception of metro in real world. Arguments for tram variant are backed by restrictions from game mechanics, though... and all most team members say that. Hm.

Personally, I think coding as trams is more logical - less clutter. Since both systems are compatible, no harm done for those who want to use train tracks.

This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.
I guess this could eventually change...

Just a thought about train depot windows being cluttered - would it be possible to write a small patch which allowed a different grouping of vehicles into more tabs?  You could then classify a subsection of the train depot as "metro" and another as "intercity" etc. as determined by the pak maintainer.  I'd certainly like something like that.
I asked prissi about that once, but it wasn't exactly warmly embraced :P


Quote
[23:32]   <|Zeno|>   btw, what about metros? trains or trams? (and don't listen to vilvoh XD)
[23:32]   <VladimirSlavik>   I'm not sure - the poll showed clearly that people (who?) see it as train
[23:33]   <vilvoh>   of course, end of discussion.
[23:33]   <vilvoh>   :-x
[23:33]   <VladimirSlavik>   but alas! nowhere did it say that the poll is a democratic vote!
[23:33]   <|Zeno|>   look, he's possesed by the dark force!

Offline PkK

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2010, 04:18:14 PM »
Metros are typically classified as trams in statistics. At least here in germany most of them operate under the laws for trams, not under those for trains. Many cities developed their metro systems by moving trams underground (i.e. peacewise replacing tram lines, with trains emerging at the ends using the same vehicles for metro and tram).

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2010, 04:14:34 PM »
however, metro in our town (namely Hong Kong) is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too big to be tram...
train stations are around a km or less interval, but trains are running every two minutes in peak hours
it is similar in many Asian cities in Japan, Singapore, China etc

this is a difference of east and west though

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2010, 05:41:58 PM »
I voted for "train", because I didn't feel like tram was the right place to put metros, but then that got me thinking.  When I play Simutrans, the trend I see is usually "long distance" trains versus "locals" or "short distance trains".  Maybe rename the tram tab to something more inclusive of metros?

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2010, 05:58:17 PM »
That's an interesting point of view, Lmallet, and maybe the easiest solution. I suggest urban trains (tram & metro) vs intercity trains.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2010, 02:30:24 AM »
light rail?

urban sounds just as good, however.

Offline stevenlim84

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2010, 11:15:18 AM »
I support Metro as train. It is because metro usually means the train with its own way(maybe tunnel, separate track like ordinary railways or above grounds) and travel inside city whereas trams usually means they share the road with others.

I think that it is better to have high capacity train station for metros. The current capacity of train stations are not enough for busy metro operations.

Trams should be similar to light rail (also the price). The only difference is that light rail do not share the road with cars while trams shares. Simutrans only need to design the track that will be affected by surrounding traffic for tram is enough (the present design is for light rail).

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2010, 11:18:54 AM »
In English, Metro is a different thing than tram? I put them in one category, since I was used to think that Metro is just another word for tram. But I'm a bit confused with all the types of light rail/tram/metro/narrow gauge that are in use and distinguished by people.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2010, 11:44:02 AM »
In english "metro" usually refers to suburban light rail - e.g. London Underground, Glasgow Subway, and the Tyne & Wear Metro in the UK.  None of these have street running, and two share infrastructure with conventional heavy rail in places.  This is completely different to "tram" which nearly always refers to systems which include on-street running at some point on their system.  In Britain there is nowhere a tram system shares track with the heavy rail network (although there are a few proposals).  "Metro" is also used to refer to services on the conventional heavy rail network which are short-distance commuter services (e.g. all station stopping services from Central London termini to the outer suburbs).

The thing is though, "metro" and "tram" are just words to describe, and the reality of transport around the world is that there is quite a continuum of things from heavy rail commuter trains which are part of the main railway network and completely specialist light rail/tram systems.  Wherever you draw the boundary, there will be some things which don't fit.  The good thing about simutrans though is that trams and trains can share infrastructure, so whatever simutrans "calls" them, the mechanics of the game still allow the full range of options.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2010, 11:54:20 AM »
here in north america we refer to "trams" as "streetcars"
metro as either: subway, light rail, rapid transit or elevated rail.

one key factor with metro, here, is that there's 100% grade separation, so there are no crossings at all.
Streetcars are always running at grade and share traffic with the cars. There are only a few dedicated lanes for streetcar only where there is room.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2010, 12:17:58 PM »
Just to confound the issue:

Chicago's Yellow Line ("Skokie Swift") is a metro with numerous grade crossings.
Phoenix's METRO streetcars are entirely grade-separated.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2010, 12:35:13 PM »
hmm, seems I need to travel more :)

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2010, 12:38:09 PM »
In english "metro" usually refers to suburban light rail - e.g. London Underground, Glasgow Subway, and the Tyne & Wear Metro in the UK.  None of these have street running, and two share infrastructure with conventional heavy rail in places.  This is completely different to "tram" which nearly always refers to systems which include on-street running at some point on their system.  In Britain there is nowhere a tram system shares track with the heavy rail network (although there are a few proposals).  "Metro" is also used to refer to services on the conventional heavy rail network which are short-distance commuter services

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Also I now know better how to translate from and to English.

In this case it seems more logical to have metro treated as train, which is what the majority already suggested.

Offline VS

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2010, 03:32:54 PM »
*facelpalm*

If anyone actually read the poll question, they would see: metro (subway, underground). I hoped that was clear enough. Should I have written u-bahn? Nobody would have read it anyway... For what it's worth, I used that word because:
Quote
A Metro is a rapid transit rail system, also known as a subway or underground
Is that totally wrong?

Now I need a poll to show me what is "metro" ;D
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 03:37:37 PM by VS »

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2010, 03:36:13 PM »
Eh, U-Bahn sounds much more like tram to me, even though The Hood just convinced me that metro are train-like vehicles ???

I guess, in addition to the real multitude of vehicles and names there also come different naming schemes in different countries which make translation really tricky :-[

Offline VS

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2010, 04:02:52 PM »
Well, now we know there was a hitch ;) After all, I don't know if my language references weren't misleading. Well, I enabled vote changing, so you can change your mind :)

That said, I only wanted to sample what people think. Regardless, simu-technicalities suggest grouping trams as a better alternative. Actually the not-so-decisive outcome tells me that I can't please everyone anyway...

PS: I'm tempted by the dark force to go with trams and stop caring about this thread :P If you don't get the reference, read Igor's signature.

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2010, 09:01:29 PM »
isn't the signaling the major difference between tram and train?

there's on techincal reason against puting the metros in the tram section: i expect quite a lot of players will just run metro train sets on street level in the tram role.

for me it's always psychologicaly difficult not to use the most efficient method just because it is not realistic, if there are no constraints in game mechanics. (it's almost the same psychological barrier that prevents one from buying overpriced things in a supermarket)

there's another advantage of not putting it into 'train' category, you can get rid of the third rail electrification there, and move it also to light rail.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2010, 09:12:43 PM »
Quote
there's another advantage of not putting it into 'train' category, you can get rid of the third rail electrification there, and move it also to light rail.
Certainly in the UK there's trains which travel for 70 miles and at speeds up to 100mph which use 3rd rail. They definitely don't fall into metro let alone tram or light rail category...

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2010, 09:15:32 PM »
i think i have idea - the trams category should be renamed to Light rail/Metro - since some places have Metro type running on tramway - (metrolink is one of them but normally metros can run either on tramway or on own tracks)

Offline gauthier

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2010, 09:46:22 PM »
In ST trains can drive on tramways and trams on track, don't they ?

I think metro is closer from train than trams, a metro convoy is longer than an average tram one.

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2010, 12:47:12 PM »
In ST trains can drive on tramways and trams on track, don't they ?

I think metro is closer from train than trams, a metro convoy is longer than an average tram one.

yep the heavyweight tram track in ST is for that use which alllows trains go on street running

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2010, 11:04:37 PM »
isn't the signaling the major difference between tram and train?
Yes, but that's in the *real* world.

In Simutrans, trams and trains can use each others tracks, and both can stop at train stations.  The key difference is that trams can stop at bus stops and trains can't.

When you think about it that way it becomes simple: metro vehicles can't stop at bus stops, they need full-scale platforms, so they go in the train category.

If you have a "light metro" vehicle which can run in streetcar mode, then go ahead and make it a tram.  (Subway-surface lines in Philadelphia, Green Line in Boston).  If you have a vehicle which normally runs on fully segregated track (grade *crossings* OK, but not running down the middle of the street), make it a train.

As a really clear example, Boston's Metro system has the Green Line, which has streetcar running and then dives into a subway; it also has the Orange, Blue, and Red lines, which have no street running, and which used to connect with freight train lines.  The Orange/Blue/Red line metro vehicles belong in a *train* depot, the Green Line vehicles belong in a *tram* depot.  Get it right for the specific vehicle you're modelling.

(edit)
In Simutrans I already build both "tram subways" and "rail subways".  I usually start with tram lines, then build a "tram subway" for the densest part of the route, then later I sometimes upgrade it to a "rail subway" and separate it from the tram lines.  This is nicely realistic as it models the history of many cities!

So again there are very good reasons to have some "pre-metro" vehicles (the ones which could run on streets as streetcars) in the tram category, and others (which couldn't) in the train category.

(edit again)

The ones which can't run on the street are generally bigger, wider, longer, and faster, so if you're making up vehicles which aren't based on real life, use that as a rule of thumb: street running trams generally have no more than four cars carrying no more than about 100 people each, while full-scale metro trains can have 12 cars or more carrying many more people.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 11:11:57 PM by neroden »

Offline werl

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2010, 03:02:22 AM »
I personally think it all depends on the specific vehicle. I think that They should be set as trams, so they can stop at appropriately fitted bus stops. I prefer them because they can be almost invisible and not clutter up the streets.

Offline AP

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2010, 08:06:22 AM »
In Simutrans, trams and trains can use each others tracks, and both can stop at train stations.  The key difference is that trams can stop at bus stops and trains can't.

Are you sure this is true in-game? I seem to recall using trains as trams to move mail on a tram network, and the train most definitely was calling successfully at the bus stops and mail boxes.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2010, 08:43:26 AM »
There is nothing to stop a train calling at a tram/bus stop AFAIK, as long as it is enabled for the correct goods type.  I think the difference in game between "tram" and "train" is very minimal (as they can both run on each other's tracks) and is just a way of splitting into two menu bars, two depots, and two speedbonus categories.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2010, 10:51:59 AM »
tram is nothing but a bus on a track.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2010, 03:49:46 PM »
just a way of splitting into two menu bars, two depots, and two speedbonus categories.

this would push for "urban/suburban rail service" (tram+metro) and "medium/long range railways" (train)

Offline gauthier

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2010, 04:00:26 PM »
I find the current system good :/

Offline Fuzzy Peach

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2010, 12:29:16 AM »
I think that they're trains not trams.

1) They're longer
2) They hold more people
3) They go faster
4) They need full-scale platforms to load and unload passengers
5) They usually run underground or on a higher level than roads

If a separate category were to be made for Metros then that would work well. I know that I've sometimes had Metros running into Train stations to get better connections, but I've never used them in Tram stations.

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2010, 01:02:38 AM »
I think that they're trains not trams.

1) They're longer
2) They hold more people
3) They go faster
4) They need full-scale platforms to load and unload passengers
5) They usually run underground or on a higher level than roads

If a separate category were to be made for Metros then that would work well. I know that I've sometimes had Metros running into Train stations to get better connections, but I've never used them in Tram stations.

well one thing that differs from metro and tram is the stations height - not the length - in metrolink which is tramway but has high level and the trams can be 4 tiles long if its coupled together with other tram - if single tram - two units together would be 2 tilles long
but at sheffield tramway - there low floor platforms so the trams are 2 tiles long but usually couple some trams form for football or event express because only two stations have long platforms (sheffiield station and arena station)
btw in my recent visit to bilao - there metro trains - 4 units in one train so they adding 5th one soon

Offline Fuzzy Peach

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2010, 03:09:34 AM »
I know that. That's what i mean'y by full scale.

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2010, 12:13:25 AM »
Are you sure this is true in-game? I seem to recall using trains as trams to move mail on a tram network, and the train most definitely was calling successfully at the bus stops and mail boxes.

Wow.  I specifically had that fail to work, but it may have been on an older version.... it could have changed.  I've been able to build railway station type tramstops on top of bus stops on the road lately, which used to be impossible too.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2010, 08:50:25 AM »
This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.

I don't build in underground any depots - because I have not ever seen underground depot. All depots of metro in Czech republic are on surface - regardless of most stations are, of course, in underground. Only few stations of Prague's metro are on surface.

And because I use metro also for transportation of post (when I play with transportation of post), I have to use ordinary trains.

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2010, 05:07:18 PM »
I don't build in underground any depots - because I have not ever seen underground depot. All depots of metro in Czech republic are on surface - regardless of most stations are, of course, in underground. Only few stations of Prague's metro are on surface.
Underground depots are rare, but there are some.  The ones I can think of offhand:
- the Waterloo & City line in the London Underground
- the yards for Metro-North surrounding Grand Central Station, underneath prime NYC real estate

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2010, 10:45:10 PM »
I was in Prague a few days ago and the metro/U-bahn/subway there looks nothing like the trains running to Brno, Vienna, Munich, etc.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2010, 06:02:10 AM »
Yes. Some (older) ones have been made in Russia and recently reconstructed and some (newer) ones were made in Czech republic. But subway was not built in Brno. There is only tram, bus and trolleybus.

Different gauge of metro-track and train-track (as it is in the Czech republic)

Metro has narrower gauge than trains.

I, of course, think that subways in other countries may have different gauge (also the same as ordinary trains).

Offline nitromefan

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2010, 04:15:25 AM »
I think it should be rail because metro in Australian English means underground rail

Offline nitromefan

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2010, 04:36:51 AM »
Most of the deports in the London metro are underground although there are a few above ground.

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2010, 05:59:45 PM »
Most of the deports in the London metro are underground although there are a few above ground.

Most of the maintenance depots are actually above ground.

Quote
Depots:

The main depots on each Underground Line are:

Bakerloo                        Stonebridge Park
Central                         West Ruislip/Hainault
District [1]                    Ealing Common/Upminster
East London                     New Cross
Hammersmith & City and Circle   Hammersmith
Jubilee                         Stratford Market
Metropolitan                    Neasden
Northern                        Golders Green/Morden
Piccadilly                      Northfields/Cockfosters
Victoria                        Northumberland Park
Waterloo & City                 Waterloo

Except for Waterloo, I believe all of these are above ground.  It's hard to dig out enough underground space for a maintenance depot -- it takes much more space than a station (something Simutrans does *not* model accurately).

Offline Caspercom

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2010, 11:41:03 AM »
I voted train mainly because of reasons already explained.

In Amsterdam, a large part of the subway/lightrail network is above the ground. (It's a bit confusing in this case, as the lightrail system is called sneltram (snel means fast) and it uses the same tracks as the metro does.) A big part of the rail lays even with the train tracks. Picture of station Amsterdam Holendrecht:


The left 2 tracks are for the train, the picture has been taken from the metro platform. As you can see, they have a lot in common.

At station Duivendrecht, the metro tracks are positioned in the middle, and the train tracks are located one at each outer part of the station:

At this station, the platforms are shared between metro and train, one at each side.

Offline Bruno Philipe

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2010, 01:16:41 AM »
The only important difference I see between a commuter train and the metros are the doors, which usually are small and on the borders of the car in trains and large and on the middle in metros. They should be placed with trains. Trams are usually small and slow, for riding with cars on roads, like a bus. Metros are different.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2010, 05:17:44 AM »
Vienna (Wein), Austria is a bit confusing between the distinction for U-bahn/metro and tram.
U-bahn platforms are very low. Trams are long. Station spacing isn't that different.

Offline Sybill

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2010, 10:16:38 AM »
In some citys the tram runs underground in the city center and becomes an u-bahn, like in Hannover for example.

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2010, 06:08:38 PM »
They avoided the naming problem in hannover by calling it Stadtbahn (city rail).

Wien has a very typical Tram system i think, at least those in districts I to XVI. They're colloquially called Bim by the way.

I think it's still sensible to consider also longer sets with their own right of way as tram, this is rather common in europe and comming to north america. Toronto's Transit city plan will (perhaps) replace the american style Streetcars with modern Tram sets.

I'm a bit doubtful if it will actually be done, it seems like the city planers and politicians are very undecided about public transport here.

Offline Max Cheng

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2010, 01:32:38 PM »
I think trams should be used as shuttle for heavy-rail system like commuter-metro-rail systems, since trams have a characteristic of low cost and street-running ability. Trains can be an "commuter-metro" for an large area running with fast, short-waiting timetable systems like the real subway. Although that needs a large numbers of subway train, but you can still receiving huge profit from $10K~50K or even more in the first few month if you can arrange a well-done shuttle from station to other urban area around the station. I will suggest bus for city with population less then 10000 because trams are one of the transit systems that drains your cash in a big time if you don't have support from high passanger rate and/or speed bonus.

Offline Freewayman

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2010, 03:28:50 AM »
Here is my criteria:
High floor - train
Low floor - tram
Therefore metros, aka subway, rapid transit, etc etc etc, is a train because it has an elevated boarding platform.

Offline yoshi

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2010, 12:39:39 PM »
Here is my criteria:
High floor - train
Low floor - tram
Therefore metros, aka subway, rapid transit, etc etc etc, is a train because it has an elevated boarding platform.

According to your definition,
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Toden-Arakawa-Line_Asukayama.jpg
This is not a tram, as the floor height of this vehicle is 790mm above the rail surface.
  http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taf_vigonza_pianiga.JPG
And this is a tram.

Weird.  :P

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2010, 12:48:56 PM »
I think floor height is a good *general* rule, but definitely not definitive...

So, we already have "trains" and "trams"... In my opinion, either:

1. Create a third "light rail" for anything that doesn't fit the above two, or
2. Reconsider "trams" to include anything "light rail", i.e. anything not "trains"...

Offline Freewayman

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2010, 11:10:40 PM »
Well, had there been no exceptions like that we wont have this thread in the first place now would we

Offline yoshi

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2010, 03:48:31 AM »
Well, had there been no exceptions like that we wont have this thread in the first place now would we

Well, in Italy, many FS commuter trains are low floor, just because platform height is low. This is not an exception in Italy at least.

German cities, including Stuttgart, Hannover, and Frankfurt am Main, have U-Bahn system which runs partially on-street sections and uses high floor vehilces. In Germany, U-Bahn is usually formed as a result of upgrade of existing tram network. If I remember correctly, there are only 4 cities (Berlin, Hamburg, Muenchen, and Nuernberg) which have U-Bahn system which were originally built as a separate U-Bahn system.


What is called something like "undergraoud railway", is significantly different from city to city. My conclusion is, it depends on where you are.

Which is yours?
http://pak128.jpn.org/underground/

Offline Erik

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2010, 02:58:10 PM »
This is a difficult poll.

Look to the way you build it with the track and stations. I should say train.
But looking to the way as local transport and the economic build-up of the game. I should say tram.

Actually it deserves a own category. (pff, more category's.)
Perhaps point 2 of Isaac is the best point.

I think floor height is a good *general* rule, but definitely not definitive...

So, we already have "trains" and "trams"... In my opinion, either:

1. Create a third "light rail" for anything that doesn't fit the above two, or
2. Reconsider "trams" to include anything "light rail", i.e. anything not "trains"...


Offline Freewayman

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2010, 10:07:22 PM »
Well, in simutrans, the platforms are too high for the trams, so all rail vehicles that are too small for train platforms should be trams.
Which brings to mind we could make a platform for trams - half as high as the train ones

pocytac

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2011, 06:27:05 PM »
They avoided the naming problem in hannover by calling it Stadtbahn (city rail).
That isn't avoiding the problem. "Stadtbahn" is the correct terminology in academic traffic theory.


German cities, including Stuttgart, Hannover, and Frankfurt am Main, have U-Bahn system which runs partially on-street sections and uses high floor vehilces. In Germany, U-Bahn is usually formed as a result of upgrade of existing tram network. If I remember correctly, there are only 4 cities (Berlin, Hamburg, Muenchen, and Nuernberg) which have U-Bahn system which were originally built as a separate U-Bahn system.


In germany academic theory and law divide into three kinds of system.
  • "U-Bahn" / "Hochbahn" (underground / elevated metro) meaning all crossings with streets or other rail systems are level-free and tracks are completely separated from street/car traffic.
  • "Stadtbahn" meaning tracks are completely separated from street/car traffic but can have level-crossings with streets.
  • "Straßenbahn" / "Tram" meaning tracks don't need to be separated from street/car traffic and thus have crossings in same level with streets.
Most important point is, that they all are run under the terms of "BOStrab" ("Straßenbahn-Bau- und Betriebsordnung", "regularities for building and operation of trams"). The first and second layout are usually both named "U-Bahn" despite their unequality in academic theory. So according to german law underground would be considered as "tram".

In germany every kind of transport system that is not a ropeway or conventional railway is run unter the terms of BOStrab, which would include light railway, underground, tram and so on. Basic point is the length of vehicles when running on streets. Those cars must not be longer than 75 meters. Cars with seperated tracks do not have this limitation. But I think - to think in-game - simutrans is not capable of controlling this difference.

The highth of the floor in vehicles is not important. Most U-Bahn trains are high-floor vehicles whereas Tram trains are usually low-level vehicles. But that's not the point to group them. Even the gauge of tracks is insignificant. For example in Frankfurt Stadtbahn and Tram have 1435 mm gauge. In Darmstadt Tram has only 1000 mm gauge. But trams in both cities are nowadays run with low-floor vehicles and were run with high-level vehicles in the past.


In the system of heavy rail there is also something similar to "metro" in germany. It is called "S-Bahn". Best equivalent in english would be local commuter railway I think. Mostly S-Bahn trains run more far into the suburbs than U-Bahn / Stadtbahn / Tram trains. Main difference in Germany is, that U-Bahn / Stadtbahn / Tram systems are run by the cities whereas S-Bahn is generally run by Deutsche Bahn.


Back to simutrans I would consider underground / metro to be both, tram and train. It depends wheter you want to mix tram and metro (then it's tram) or metro and heavy rail (then it's train). For example the "London Underground" would be train. The DLR (to stay in London) would be tram.
In Germany S-Bahn would be train, U-Bahn would be tram even if they have the same gauge of tracks and nearly same width of vehicles.

So thinking in-game I would appreciate if there were tunnels for tram / metro (as tram) in simutrans with faster tracks (could easily be 100 km/h top-speed) and larger vehicles. And thinking about gates for tunnels I find the 130-km/h-tunnels of 128.japan very stylish and useful for that purpose. ;-)

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2011, 01:09:34 PM »

This tram looks fine. I wish somebody made it for Simutrans - pak128.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 04:45:18 PM by VaclavMacurek »

Offline whoami

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2011, 04:24:25 PM »
But I think - to think in-game - simutrans is not capable of controlling this difference.
In Simutrans with the standard pak-set (pak64), train and tram are essentially the same transport system. But it is possible to put all the tram items into a separate system, so they cannot be connected to or combined with train facilities (except crossings, if defined).
However, introducing this change in an existing pak-set makes it incompatible to its previous versions and savegames.

Offline Erik

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2011, 04:50:20 PM »
No
I think that's not a good idea.
I like that a tram can particularly use the track and stops of a train.
Only thing to prevent is that a train use the tram-track.

Offline gwalch

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2011, 08:36:34 AM »
If trams and trains are totally separated, where go the "tram-train" ? It exists in many countries, for exemple Germany, or France...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram-train

I prefer system which not allow trains on tram track (but tram can use trains line...and on that case tram-trains are firstly tram !).
And if it's separated, we have to design new complete set of lights for trams, maybe bridges...

For the metro, it's for me not a tram at all... Maybe it needs new specific category, but for the moment, i am agree with actual system (metro is train)... I think metro on the road is not correct...

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2011, 07:26:09 PM »
I prefer system which not allow trains on tram track (but tram can use trains line...and on that case tram-trains are firstly tram !).
And if it's separated, we have to design new complete set of lights for trams, maybe bridges...

Weight limits for ways will soon take care of this problem. There will be some exceptions for really light trains, and it will perhaps not really work to get metros away from tram tracks, but at least you can't run a TGV as metro anymore :-)

pocytac

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2011, 08:04:11 PM »
[...]but at least you can't run a TGV as metro anymore :-)
Will that also prevent freight trains from using tracks for high speed passanger trains?


BTT:
I think there should be two kinds of metro-like transport system. Something similar to light rail systems belonging to tram (but, if possible with tunnels, bridges and elevated ways for tram tracks) and something similar to large underground, local commuter or local rapid transport system belonging to trains (also with tunnels, bridges and elevated tracks). Maybe the difference could be the height of floor level.

That would not be an precise dipiction of reality but as simutrans is only a simulation and it's complexity can't be completely variable at will we need to cut back at some point. And I think having room to decide whether to build a metro system as tram oder train system and also having all needed stuff to really do so is much more than we have by now.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2011, 08:11:46 PM »
at least you can't run a TGV as metro anymore :-)
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.  :D

But I often use following trains as metro (and it is the same madness like using TGV):




Czech user TommPa9 created all of them. The first and the third one have already been present in pak128 - but he has made them new - and much better (mainly that double-decked EMU).

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2011, 09:55:18 PM »
Quote
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.
not in simutrans, speed bonus depends on maximum speed not average speed. Only length is a problem. But there are shorter high speed trains.

pocytac

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2011, 10:05:42 PM »
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.  :D

I did! I once had a map where I used Shinkansen-Trains als underground because ist simply was the fastest (top-speed in tunnels 280 km/h) and most efficient vehicle in the depot. That's not as mad as you think by now.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2011, 10:54:56 PM »
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.
not in simutrans, speed bonus depends on maximum speed not average speed. Only length is a problem. But there are shorter high speed trains.

I build metro webs where stations have length 4 tiles - and often they are not quite distant from each other - like on following old screenshot where you can see big underground station and two small stations of metro (the first one is built from London underground add-on stations; the second one is built from the same add-on like big one)


So you see that stations are too close to each other. For this reason I use only classical EMUs instead high speed trains. And still I make money from those trains. Actually used train (the second one from list of photos) can go only 110 km/h - but it can load also post. Transporting of mail in the same one as passengers is better (very often). And capacity of that train with length of 4 tiles is 672 people and 74 mail bags. It is (but I am not sure) the best what you can get.

Offline greenling

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #92 on: February 05, 2011, 05:43:40 PM »
I Find that´s a Splitting Between Railroad and tram then in Simutrans be get new Trouble and problems!
I Have many old´s Addons they then not more work and then be get worthless.
A little example:
Looking on Japanes.simutrans.com all zipfiles form vehicles,way,tunnels and bridge on and looking for whit
Simutransversion be made it!
Those zipfiles then be make than problems1

greenling