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Offline VS

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Metro - as tram or train?
« on: February 15, 2010, 03:20:10 PM »
Where does metro belong? Should it be grouped with trains or with trams? Possible reasons: speed, capacity, combination with other networks...

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 03:28:41 PM »
In reality I'd think it's grouped with trams. In current Simutrans version I don't know what will fit better.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 03:30:02 PM »
I would say they are closest to trains, because of their aspect and general working. Indeed, I understand them as high capacity low speed trains.
Anyway, I would understand they fit better in Simutrans as trams, because the tram depots are much less busy than trains', because they're quite smaller than other simutrans trains.

So, I understand it's more important that it fits well in the game rather than keeping realism at any price. That's because my vote will go to trams, unless I find a good reason to change mi mind.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 03:35:33 PM »
I've got a similar problem with pak128.Britain.  Logically they should go as trains I think, as most metro trains aren't capable of street-running (not that simutrans prevents trains from running on tram tracks anyway, so that point is academic).  It's probably in the train depot where most people would look for them first.

The flip side is they have speed characteristics of trams, so for speed bonus balancing later in the game slow metro trains must have very low costs to remain profitable if a different speed bonus curve is used for tram and train...  That's one reason why I put the DLR trains as tram vehicles in pak128.Britain.  London Underground (when I get round to doing them) would probably remain as trains, as they are still pretty "heavy rail" compared to "light rail" trams...

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 03:49:14 PM »
I see metros as underground trains with high capacity and low speed, as Zeno said above. It's true that some metro systems are on surface, but in that case they would fit directly in tram or monorail cathegories.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 03:58:48 PM by vilvoh »

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 05:38:58 PM »
I see them as local transport, like trams, so I voted tram. :)

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 05:47:26 PM »
Similar viewpoint as The Hood - I think of trams depot as light rail, whether or not they are street running, trains are heavy rail of any speed. Having underground in train depot means that speed bonuses are more of a factor too.

Offline z9999+

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 06:12:14 PM »
This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 06:52:03 PM »
Our system here is built (in an unusual fashion I might add) so that the gauge is the same between trams/streetcar and metro/subway.
the thing that separates them is the electrification and platform height.
Both are capable of similar speeds, but the tram has more stops and on street congestion to deal with, so they are slower.

the only thing that separates trams/metro from a train in most other countries is weight and curve radii, since the track gauge is shared.

Offline Junna

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 08:14:14 PM »
It's true that some metro systems are on surface, but in that case they would fit directly in tram or monorail cathegories.

Not really, they are for all intents and purposes normal railways?

The only exception to this is the operation of trams in short underground tunnels in city centres and with dedicated tracks, but those are not true metros, but generally thought of as "light rail" or "light metro". Even an entirely above-ground or ground-level metro would by all means be considered a normal railway and not a tram, or a monorail... if only simutrans had incorporated any elevated viaduct sections, which I don't think any major paks do (yet).

They are local transport, it is true, but this is not really something unique to trams. Metros generally have larger service areas than trams, generally filling a niche between outright commuter railway service and trams and buses, or, occasionally, as in Seoul, also being a commuter railway.

So naturally, I don't think it can be anything but train, despite how this makes the speed bonus thingy difficult. Most of my metro systems have an average speed of about 50-60 km/h (-ex), and generally speaking despite a 7.00/km maint. on a train and short journeys, they generally do run a profit (even when not much else does!)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 08:27:01 PM »
I voted for trams for several reasons, most of them already expressed:
- local transport vs medium/long distance
- possibility of mixed networks going underground in the city centre
- train depot already crammed, more rail tracks and tunnels (to come), whereas trams don't have tunnels so far and their depot is half empty

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2010, 09:06:30 PM »
is it possible to just rename "tram depot" to "light rail depot" or "light commuter rail depot"?

a sort of modern version of narrow gauge, but one important aspect is that light rail trains should be able to run on standard rail.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2010, 11:43:36 PM »
I voted for trains - regardless of it could own category because it is mix between trains and trams. But writing another type of transportation is not easy.

I can't disagree with Junna's experience with underground but in Czech republic they goes faster than trams (difference is about twenty kilometers per hour and may be greater).

Metro is closer to trains - regardless of interior is very close to trams. Stations are often further and units also can go faster than trams, buses or trolleybuses. Webs of their lines are not so dense. Metro trains are longer than most of trams - and also some classical trains on short tracks.

Trams are closer buses - mostly they are limited by other vehicles.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 08:37:02 AM »
Just a thought about train depot windows being cluttered - would it be possible to write a small patch which allowed a different grouping of vehicles into more tabs?  You could then classify a subsection of the train depot as "metro" and another as "intercity" etc. as determined by the pak maintainer.  I'd certainly like something like that.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 09:00:25 AM »
Don't know how difficult/convenient would be this, but I like, and it could be a point to reconsider my opinion...

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 09:14:34 AM »
The Hood: very interesting idea - but I am not sure how would you specify what is intercity when trams go between cities too. So it is only interesting idea. :)

Example from rail web of Czech republic:
Most and Litvínov (north of country; known mainly for large coal mines and near chemical factory) are far about 16 kilometers from each other - and tram goes between them.


But some cities and villages are much closer to each other and train goes between them.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 09:20:22 AM »
@Vaclav,

There would need to be something in the dat file of the vehicle which would say which category it belongs to.  If none exists, put in one of the default categories.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 09:28:41 AM »
Of course - but it needs quite great change of code of game. In dat file it is only one line - but to game could use this, in game code more than one line is needed to add - and change.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 09:53:00 AM »
Just a thought about train depot windows being cluttered - would it be possible to write a small patch which allowed a different grouping of vehicles into more tabs?  You could then classify a subsection of the train depot as "metro" and another as "intercity" etc. as determined by the pak maintainer.  I'd certainly like something like that.

Full support.
And also a "Metro" toolbar -- with their dedicated tracks, tunnels, electrification and, mostly, stations.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2010, 12:28:19 PM »
I maybe wouldn't go as far as to have a separate toolbar - but as long as train, "metro" and tram were all inter-operable (as train and tram are now), it wouldn't matter too much.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2010, 02:01:18 PM »
I maybe wouldn't go as far as to have a separate toolbar -
this would be needed with 5 or more train tracks, 3-4 stations etc...  if we want also 2-3 metro tracks and 3-5 stations.

Offline whoami

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2010, 04:20:11 PM »
Due to speed bonus effect, I think metro should go into trams (lacking an intermediate category).

And this is a real problem, which needs to besolved by changing the program:
This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2010, 04:42:20 PM »
Maybe the best solution is as fabio says for a new intermediate "metro" category with its own set of speed bonuses, depots, high-capacity stations, and low-speed tracks and its own toolbar.  As long as metro can also then run onto heavy rail as well, that would probably get the best of all worlds...

Offline whoami

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2010, 06:05:31 PM »
A separate category means more menue clutter, more objects to paint (stations, track - what about bridges, tunnel entries?), more support cases... And the player should still be able to use them as overground trains (because metro lines appear above ground in reality where available space allows), just as a separate, incompatible system (it would not allow level crossings, for example). This is less player-friendly than the alternatives, I think.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 06:46:44 PM »
Whoami: I think so.

Offline Silver

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2010, 08:56:48 PM »
the metro in my country have 3 tracks on each side, so it's totally different from a train and should not go along with the trains. The green arrows in the picture are the electric power bars of vertically feed. It's similar to that used in Paris

The metro in my city exist on underground, surface level and elevated level

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2010, 09:51:29 PM »
regarding the metro - in holland - there metro but turns to fast tram at suburbs - Line 51 at asterdam - and also there two lines exists on rotterdam - on the red line (latter known as A and B lines) and also line E will be like tram and metro and in asterdam there line 5 with low platforms so trams and metro can be shared
other way in england - metro and train can be shared - newscastle has one such example and in London underground on bakerloo and Met and Disrict line
its could be fit in metro menu so speical rules - Metro and trams and trains can share but the metro can't go on tramway tracks unless its speical equipped - rotterdam has one on A and B lines - wherebouts the metro can use street tracks
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 10:49:24 PM by rsdworker »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2010, 10:17:01 PM »
metro and tram in Toronto uses the same gauge tracks that don't work with any other gauge which includes narrow, standard or broad gauge.
There were plans on using trams in the metro tunnels, but it never happened. Trams are closer to buses in use and metro trains would never be able to cope on the sharp turns the trams have.

but then again, there are also tram-trains, which aside from having low platforms, don't seem very different from a train with their 3+ articulated cars. They are all forms of light rail however.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2010, 07:54:50 AM »
A separate category means more menue clutter,
Not with a separate toolbar, this is why i proposed it
more objects to paint (stations, track - what about bridges, tunnel entries?),
I think this issue came around due to the *will* to have more objects painted.
Anyway, I think that subset should be a feature pak-dependent, so that different paks can choose different implementations, in a healthy competition between ideas.
And the player should still be able to use them as overground trains (because metro lines appear above ground in reality where available space allows)
In subway toolbar could be mostly tunnels, with only one overground "service" track (for depots and starting tunnels) with low speed and high maintainance. But overground they could merge and interoperate with normal heavy rail system.

Offline VS

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2010, 10:51:04 PM »
Looking at the comments, it seems that votes for trains are based on perception of metro in real world. Arguments for tram variant are backed by restrictions from game mechanics, though... and all most team members say that. Hm.

Personally, I think coding as trams is more logical - less clutter. Since both systems are compatible, no harm done for those who want to use train tracks.

This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.
I guess this could eventually change...

Just a thought about train depot windows being cluttered - would it be possible to write a small patch which allowed a different grouping of vehicles into more tabs?  You could then classify a subsection of the train depot as "metro" and another as "intercity" etc. as determined by the pak maintainer.  I'd certainly like something like that.
I asked prissi about that once, but it wasn't exactly warmly embraced :P


Quote
[23:32]   <|Zeno|>   btw, what about metros? trains or trams? (and don't listen to vilvoh XD)
[23:32]   <VladimirSlavik>   I'm not sure - the poll showed clearly that people (who?) see it as train
[23:33]   <vilvoh>   of course, end of discussion.
[23:33]   <vilvoh>   :-x
[23:33]   <VladimirSlavik>   but alas! nowhere did it say that the poll is a democratic vote!
[23:33]   <|Zeno|>   look, he's possesed by the dark force!

Offline PkK

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2010, 04:18:14 PM »
Metros are typically classified as trams in statistics. At least here in germany most of them operate under the laws for trams, not under those for trains. Many cities developed their metro systems by moving trams underground (i.e. peacewise replacing tram lines, with trains emerging at the ends using the same vehicles for metro and tram).

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2010, 04:14:34 PM »
however, metro in our town (namely Hong Kong) is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too big to be tram...
train stations are around a km or less interval, but trains are running every two minutes in peak hours
it is similar in many Asian cities in Japan, Singapore, China etc

this is a difference of east and west though

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2010, 05:41:58 PM »
I voted for "train", because I didn't feel like tram was the right place to put metros, but then that got me thinking.  When I play Simutrans, the trend I see is usually "long distance" trains versus "locals" or "short distance trains".  Maybe rename the tram tab to something more inclusive of metros?

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2010, 05:58:17 PM »
That's an interesting point of view, Lmallet, and maybe the easiest solution. I suggest urban trains (tram & metro) vs intercity trains.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2010, 02:30:24 AM »
light rail?

urban sounds just as good, however.