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Offline wlindley us

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Industry mix
« on: May 31, 2010, 04:00:02 PM »
  • Could we add generic "perhisable food" (cooled goods) and "boxed food" categories?  In the postwar era, as supermarkets are introduced, for example:
    • bakeries would convert flour to boxed food, carried to supermarkets
    • dairies would convert milk to perishable food, carried to supermarkets and petrol stations
    • there could be various canneries that convert meat+veg+flour, or fish+steel, into boxed food
  • Independent of above, would it work to define Restaurants that accepted low quantities of meat, flour, fish, fruit, and veg? Could be several variations of which goods are used (fish-n-chip shop, etc.).  And because of low use levels, would it be proper to give high probability?

Fish-n-chip shop could look something like this:


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 06:41:52 PM »
An interesting idea, although note that introducing new types of goods breaks all previous saved games.

Offline TrainMith

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 06:04:20 AM »
One thing that I personally find humorous within ST, regardless of pakset, is how most villages (small cities) have no small consumer markets.  Here in the USA, there are a lot of villages (small towns) that might have one stop light and a gas station, or a stop light and a bar (pub).  The industrial distribution within ST (or the pakset config file) seems just a little off, not giving these final consumer markets in each town.
But Wlindley does have a point:  Dairies, at least in the USA in the current era, deliver to supermarkets.  Bakeries are quite similar to that now, too. 

Offline sdog

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 06:41:18 AM »
How is the bakery "industry chain" in Britain now, American or European? And if it's American, when did it change, in the 80s?


Oh, and if you don't mind a completely off-topic question for americans:
I learned that most people here only go drive to the supermarket every week or two. Do they eat bread only shortly after that trip? In my experience of american style toast-bread in germany can be eaten untoasted for about a day or two, afterwards only toasted. After about 4 days the smell changes, likely due to fungi/mold.
The typical US way of putting anything in the fridge falls out, since bread like tomatoes can't be refrigerated. So i'm genuinly confused what people do here :-)
Here in northamerica i bought it only once but tried to eat it up on the first two days. (no experiments -- it's super expensive here!) [Fortunately there are two 'real' bakeries within a 5 min. walk from my flat]

perhaps answer in pm only, not to spam the thread even more than i did ;-)


« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:54:44 AM by sdog »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 08:14:35 AM »
@jamespetts:

I didn't think adding new goods per se broke existing saves, only if you changed goods in existing transport chains in the save did you get a problem.  I think wlindley's ideas could be implemented with new goods and industries and minimal impact on old saves. 

@wlindley

Certainly all the ideas are possible, but whether or not they are desirable is another idea.  Currently industry chains are intended to be simple and logicial (mainly to prevent pak128-style spawnings of 101 industries for every 1 end-use supermarket that is generated, which quickly results in a map overpopulated with industries all over the place IMO, and very complex supply chains that take forever to set up).  However a supermarket towards the end of the game may be worth adding, and in that case your suggestions would make sense.  About restaurants though, it's a nice touch but I think it would upset the balance of the game too much - the amounts of goods required would be very small.  However if you produce the dats and graphics  you could try releasing as an add-on and if people agree it is a good addition it could go in the main pak.

Offline skreyola

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2010, 06:50:30 PM »
I learned that most people here only go drive to the supermarket every week or two. Do they eat bread only shortly after that trip? In my experience of american style toast-bread in germany can be eaten untoasted for about a day or two, afterwards only toasted. After about 4 days the smell changes, likely due to fungi/mold.
The typical US way of putting anything in the fridge falls out, since bread like tomatoes can't be refrigerated. So i'm genuinly confused what people do here :-)
Here in northamerica i bought it only once but tried to eat it up on the first two days. (no experiments -- it's super expensive here!) [Fortunately there are two 'real' bakeries within a 5 min. walk from my flat]
We put our bread in the fridge/freezer, and it doesn't hurt it. Also, white bread stays fresh for a week or more in a climate-controlled building (i.e., central heat/air) because the humidity tends to be lower. Whole wheat bread, having more vitamin E and lecethin, spoils faster.
Not sure where you're talking about, but grocery runs vary. Some people plan it so they can go only once/wk, while some people (myself included) sometimes go every other day (I live farther from town than the grocery store is) as we need things.

@jamespetts: What's wrong with keeping them as cooled goods as they are now? Doesn't that mean the same as perishable?

@TheHood: I think things like supermarkets should not spark the generation of chains for more than one or two of their final goods. e.g., if the supermarket sells 5 goods, it should only spawn a chain for the simplest/straightest, and should make use of existing chains, if possible. The outputs of the other chains might need adjusting, because a single factory normally supplies a great number of supermarkets... so this would be more realistic and simplify the map.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:55:19 PM by skreyola »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2010, 07:24:35 PM »
Supermarkets are a particularly good idea, I think: they would be quite easy graphics to make and would compliment a city well. It would make things more interesting in later years.

Offline skreyola

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2010, 09:39:11 PM »
Supermarkets are a particularly good idea, I think: they would be quite easy graphics to make and would compliment a city well. It would make things more interesting in later years.
They already exist in pak64 (although they are enormous... almost like they're pak128 graphics)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 10:09:20 PM »
Best not use those graphics, then :-) We perhaps need to distinguish between ordinary supermarkets and out-of-town hypermarkets.

Offline sdog

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 10:35:07 PM »
It should be possible to make distinctive bakeries in towns and bakery factories, with the first only consuming Flour, with no production, while the latter produce packed food to be delivered to supermarkets.

Depending on the historical situation in Britain, you can set the start date for the supermarkets, and/or industrial bakeries to 1970 or so, and have normal bakeries up to the 80s they will disappear slowly then.

In continental Europe it is quite typical now that bakeries and Supermarkets in towns get frozen prefabricated products delivered, they just finish to bake. The chain would be: Flour -> Bakery: frozen goods -> Bakery store/Supermarket.
This is logistically easy, since the branches need only an automatic oven, customers get fresh products, stores have no problem with the short shelf live of bread, and can quickly.


A different remark, i don't think delivering to Supermarkets or small stores does fit very well into the abstract scope of the game. Delivering to Wholesales would much better however. This would be only a name change though. The tendency of simutrans to build the supermarkets beside towns, instead of into them, also would speak for this.

@skreyola,
thanks for the explanation. Doesn't the bread get stale immediately below 10 or 7 C, since starch crystallises? I'm living in Toronto now. It's surprising how different food in north america is from the rest of the world. I wondered how i got so fat in about 2 months, until i learned sweet things like cake or biscuits are really dangerous here, they replace normal sugar (saccharose) with fructose! Saccharose and Starch are filling up glycogen stores while the fructose increases lipogenesis.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 11:40:24 PM »
I always freeze my bread, but it's only good for toasting afterwards.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 02:35:26 AM »
Here's just a pak with 1950 and 1970 supermarkets, the large 1970 one being impossibly bland and needing much graphics work.  The single-tile 1950s one is a high-street version.  Just for you to add to your pak directory to try...

Offline skreyola

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 04:21:18 PM »
@sdog: Not that I've noticed. I don't see any difference in the quality of the bread after cooling/freezing, as long as you freeze the pack closed and don't keep it in the freezer during the period you're going into the pack for a slice often (freezer burn occurs then), but some people are more sensitive, I guess (see jamespetts' comment). Kind of like milk; I'm sensitive to when it's about to go bad, while other don't notice until it's pretty well sour.

@wlindley: Thanks. I'll check that out.
@wlindley: Fatal error cannot resolve GOOD-vegetables. Which pak do I need? (I guess I should make sure this is a pak64 pak... is it?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 04:36:39 PM by skreyola »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 08:20:34 PM »
@skreyola - the clue is in the board this topic is in - pak128.Britain.  I don't even think this addon will work with standard pak128 as the good vegetables is only present in pak128.Britain.

Offline skreyola

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 10:14:17 PM »
@skreyola - the clue is in the board this topic is in - pak128.Britain.  I don't even think this addon will work with standard pak128 as the good vegetables is only present in pak128.Britain.
*wears the dunce cap*

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2010, 04:08:06 PM »
Inspecting goods-128.dat (as part of trying to jumpstart pak128.USA) reveals, the Britain pak already has goods type canned_food, which could be used, presumably without affecting existing saved games.  The awaited Supermarket chain would accept canned_food.

I am thinking, canned_food could be produced by canneries that would accept (fish+steel), (meat+steel), (vegetables+steel), (fruit+steel)... although I do not see a way for an industry to accept "good-1 OR good-2" only "good-1 AND good2" ? Perhaps there would have to be a few types of canneries.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2010, 03:25:22 PM »
Yes, for some unknown reason even though no part of pak128.Britain uses canned_food the program insists it does and crashes unless that entry is present.  Feel free to use it.

And no, "OR" logic in goods acceptance isn't a feature of the simutrans world (which is why, for example, sheep farms and cattle farms both produce "livestock" rather than "sheep" and "cows").

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Industry mix
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2010, 06:32:56 PM »
Yes, for some unknown reason even though no part of pak128.Britain uses canned_food the program insists it does and crashes unless that entry is present.  Feel free to use it.
Cant reproduce this (anymore?).