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Author Topic: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?  (Read 7066 times)

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Offline IgorEliezer br

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Once some months ago, I had spoken that there is no need to keep both Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese on Simutrans Wiki.

We Brazilians speak Portuguese. Portuguese speak Portuguese. No one says we need both American English and British English on the wiki just because some "variants" on orthography, like "color" and "colour". Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese are exactly same language, with same syntax and same grammar; the differences between both "languages" are mostly usage, pronunciation (even in Brazil you will find at least 11 ways of speaking) and some orthographic variants like "ato" and "acto" (English: "act").

Quote
Formal writing
The written Brazilian standard differs from the European one to about the same extent that written American English differs from written British English
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese#Formal_writing

And the recent agreements are leading us a deeper orthographic unity throughout the Portuguese-speaking world.

There are too few Portuguese speaker members on Simutrans Community, so splitting even more the efforts between two "wikies" is no desirable. :-[ (... and I don't know if Portuguese speakers from countries other than Brazil will feel comfortable to "work with/on" a Brazilian wiki ;D )

Then, I would kindly ask Wiki maintainers to keep "Portuguese" only.

If someone else is con, please feel free to post. :)

Thank you.

Offline Frank

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 04:15:30 AM »
@Igor
Yes, we've talked about

Only the first step the user has done. And I am among the few people who work for the wiki does not hold.

Why not join Portuguese to Brazilian Portuguese?

So far, there were none of the two. Now there are just Brazilian Portuguese first.

And I maintain that Tikiwiki is open to everyone. As long as someone cares so I proudly accept any language/language variant, which is supported by Tikiwiki.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 04:20:00 AM by Frank »

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 04:35:50 AM »
Why not join Portuguese to Brazilian Portuguese?

Because not every Portuguese speaker uses Brazilian Portuguese. On the other hand, all Portuguese speakers use Portuguese, including this Brazilian here. ;)

As long as someone cares so I proudly accept any language/language variant, which is supported by Tikiwiki.

The support for language variant between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese made sense some years ago (when there were more "variant" words). But now both language variants are going to unification, remaining pronunciation, culture and usage as the only differences between both variants. Even the Wikipedia (with thousands of writers) has only Portuguese, for both Brazilian and European Portuguese speakers.

I'm just wanting to avoid dispersing the few effort we potentially have. If the work that just started is an issue, I kindly transfer the content and nothing will be lost.

My concerns are two: 1) dispersing effort, 2) why would I force non-Brazilians to use a Brazilian wiki? Then, chances are non-Brazilians will start to write pages that are exactly the same text (just copy-paste) with some differences here and there

My goal is that any Portuguese speaker can use the Portuguese wiki.

EDIT: In fact, I thought a lot of times to work on the wiki but this issue of having two "Portuguese" has always brought me doubts.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 05:05:32 AM by IgorEliezer »

Offline Frank

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 04:53:47 AM »
....
I'm just wanting to avoid dispersing the few effort we potentially have. If the work that just started is an issue, I kindly transfer the content and nothing is lost.

Discuss this with An_dz or your language board.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 05:02:14 AM »
Discuss this with An_dz or your language board.

I will. :)

Besides, I had edited my post above while you were posting.

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 07:46:53 AM »
One doubt. Is there some kind of international portuguesse, like international spanish, common to all portuguesse spoken countries?

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 11:39:35 PM »
There is: the Portuguese. ;D

Just kidding. This is the very first time I heard of "international" version of a language.

If you go visit any school in Brazil, all of them teaches Portuguese (obviously, the language spoken on the "streets" varies too much so that I got on troubles sometimes ;)). The differences between pt-BR (Brazilian Portuguese) and pt-EU (European Portuguese) are mostly spellings of certain words, names of trivial things (e.g. names of some animals, vehicles, fruits and culture facts), pronunciation and ways of how you "build up" the phrases. I for one can read perfectly an article written by a Portuguese in pt-EU. Quotting the Wikipedia again (since I can't speak any better...):

Quote
The Brazilian spellings of certain words differ from those used in Portugal and the other Portuguese-speaking countries. Some of these differences are merely orthographic, but others reflect true differences in pronunciation. They are similar to how the English spellings of certain words in the United States differ from the spellings used in other English-speaking countries.

Since last orthographic agreement, I think the "division" between  pt-BR and pt-EU no longer is needed, once the differences between both variants were shrank even more.

Last, as far as I know, Simutrans doesn't have a Brazilian Portuguese version nor help texts in both Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese. What we could do is adopt the same method that Wikipedia did: if there is a word that really differs between both variants, then we should provide both to the reader. E.g. "In this depot, you can buy buses for your line", then:

"Nesta garagem você pode comprar os ônibus/autocarros para sua linha"

or

"Nesta garagem você pode comprar os ônibus (pt-EU: "autocarros") para sua linha"
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 01:55:08 AM by IgorEliezer »

Offline Fabio

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2010, 07:09:25 AM »
E.g. "In this depot, you can buy buses for your line", then:

"Nesta garagem você pode comprar os ônibus/autocarros para tua linha"

or

"Nesta garagem você pode comprar os ônibus (pt-EU: "autocarros") para tua linha"

the first one seems much better textwise, after all this is not a dictionary, but a help/ingame text

Offline An_dz

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2010, 06:16:28 PM »
I think it's better unify them.
I started with PT-BR cause that's my language and PT-EU have some different words, but since the pages will look exactly the same, there's no need to have billions of 'duplicated' pages.

I can do it tomorrow with all pages and also change the links from pt-br_ to pt_, but I would like to see a agreement here, what you think? Can I start doing it?

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2010, 09:26:18 PM »
I agree.

I'll post something on PT-Portuguese board.

And thank you. An_dz, your effort is most welcome. :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 11:59:59 PM by IgorEliezer »

Offline An_dz

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 10:16:10 PM »
The wiki is merged now, Brazilian Portuguese Wiki is now Portuguese wiki
I've already corrected all the links in all pages, now all of them point to pt_

I want to say thanks for Frank for helping out transferring the pages and updating the Tikiwiki home.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 01:54:25 AM »
This will save us from further annoyances of managing two Wikies. Thank you.

I posted something about it here (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=448.msg56603#msg56603) in Portuguese board.

Soon I'll post a topic announcing this new wiki in Portuguese and let's hope more people contribute on it too :D. I had started to write a wiki some months ago (http://pt.wiki.simutrans.com), but I stopped due to "several" reasons, like tiredness and job. :-[

I'm not off totally. Lately, I've worked on simutrans.com update and some translations.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 05:29:30 PM by IgorEliezer »

Offline Frank

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 05:06:23 PM »
I removed all pt-br pages in Tikiwiki

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese: why not only one language?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 05:48:56 PM »
Thank you :)