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Offline Spike

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Simutrans sites discussion
« on: October 15, 2008, 03:38:51 PM »
Next problem all projects have one main page. Simutrans has a lot good sites. And the links distribute the power to different pages. So don't grow up no page to the top of results.

A while ago I gave http://www.simutrans.de a slight update. I hope I can give the site more care again in the future, and maybe make it more central with a wider coverage of the Simutrans world and news.

At least I'll try. No promises, though. Until then I'll keep the link to http://www.simutrans.com on the title page.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 03:41:29 PM by Hajo »

Offline prissi

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Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2008, 07:56:16 PM »
Actually I consider simutrans.sourceforge.net the main site until somebody does something better. It is based on a long work of Napik on the 128.simutrans.com layout, but covers all simutrans.

Offline Spike

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Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2008, 09:07:35 PM »
You mean I rather should link that one? The other link I've added as requested a few years ago.

Offline Lmallet

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Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2008, 09:43:34 PM »
Actually I consider simutrans.sourceforge.net the main site until somebody does something better. It is based on a long work of Napik on the 128.simutrans.com layout, but covers all simutrans.
I think www.simutrans.com should point to simutrans.sourceforge.net...  :)

Offline vilvoh

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Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2008, 09:57:00 PM »
I support it.

Offline prissi

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Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2008, 09:57:42 PM »
Well, I think, apart from your Site (Hajo) the simutrans.sourceforge.net has most on simutrans anywhere. Still a little outdated, but the best that exists at the moment. I need to fix a lot of links, since the server move, I admit.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2008, 03:38:44 AM »
I think this important subject deserves a particular topic.

(Topic split from: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=398.0)

I'll say what I think:

1) Simutrans has a very bad site network. What I mean is that a visitor gets lost easily among our sites. Our sites are not well interconnected each other so that a vistor can find anything about Simutrans; if you previously know the address of a tool or resource site, ok; but if you don't... oh sorry, you have to discover it by yourself. There are sites that are absolutely hard to find. Our site network needs to be re-organized so that come to facilitate the flow of who visits our sites. 
 
2) Simutrans.sourceforge.net is, until now, the best site that represents Simutrans. Simutrans.com should have a link (at least EN one) pointing to simutrans.sourceforge.net. But we have more two problems: 1. simutrans.sourceforge.net is outdated, 2. not all visitors speak English. 
 
If it's outdated, why is it outdated? How to update it? Is it easy to do so? If it's outdated, it's so because is hard to update, I mean, if a reliable member wanted to make a update there, he can do it easily? 
 
3) Not all visitors speak English. I propused a while ago that each language should have at least a Language page introducing visitor, briefly and in their own language, what is Simutrans, and informing our important works and links, e. g. Forum, GetSimutrans, Simutrans SourceForge etc. http://pt.simutrans.com is a sample of my idea.  I could say "let's translate whole simutrans.sourceforge", but it might be a pain, then I think a page per language explaining Simutrans and pointing main sites would be very good.

I propose a site network which visitor open simutrans.com, choose a language, and he is conduced to a page that shows what is Simutrans in their language (but if English, he is conduced directly to simutrans.sourceforge). See attached image.
 
But I want to go further: 
 
Who are we wanting to attract to us? I could say: players, pixel artists, programmers and writers. 
 
Then I ask: If you were one of them and is discovering Simutrans right now, you would feel motivated to get involved with Simutrans? Can you find "material" that presents Simutrans and our works to you and makes you motivated to get involved?
 
Futher: you never heard about Simutrans, you are one of we want to attract, is there a way to reach you?

Once we have re-organized our material so that any visitor can know Simutrans in real dimension, we can publish Simutrans in sites where players are, where pixel artists are, where programmers are and so on. We have to show them here they can have good experiences, and learn new things and improve their skills. It makes me remember promotional videos about Simutrans... it's a small sample.
 
I think Simutrans is a very big masterpiece and deserves to be known more than now, deserves to becomie a reference in game simulators; also deserves a big community where several projects are being developed by teams, not by one or two persons. I don't know how to express what I want to say... I just think Simutrans deserves much more... 
 
Don't get it as a criticism, but as a praise.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 03:42:34 AM by IgorTekton »

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2008, 08:00:19 AM »
I support Igor's too but I'm going further than you Igor (may be offtopic). This is the typical situation where the Simutrans community shows that imho it's bad organized. I mean, we detect a problem (simutrans site network), we talk about it (propose a need layout), we get to a common solution (remake it) but we don't go further than words. We can discuss as much as you want to but If we don't carry out the points we are agree about, it's quite useless to discuss although we decide to do anything (even do anything is do something but I'm afraid we do nothing at all)

When it's time for action nobody knows who must get things done, who's the one we enough "power" to carry it out. Therefore, who can do this? who can change the site network layout? What does that person need?  As we say in Spain, who's going to take the bull by the horns? who will dare to say "Ok, I've the means so let's do it but I need help from others? Who wants to join to me?"

I sometimes feel that the power of decision is very concentrated in a few people, and that blocks this kind of small projects that are not vital but elemental for attracting people to the project. I can understand that things like the official pak style or the inclusion of certain patches are important, but these minor projects like updating the site network structure should be easier to carry out. We should be less burocratic with certain projects..

P.S: I apologize if it sounds rude but this situation is very common so I thought It was a good moment to expose my point of view.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 08:02:29 AM by vilvoh »

Offline prissi

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2008, 08:30:14 AM »
Well, things are done, when somebody does them. Napik and some other members did a very nice job on the original pages of simutrans.com, but for some reason the pages never got online. I just took them, updated them and put them on the network.

THe page are only outdated insofar, as that several links are not uptodate (due to the recent sever moves) and I am running behind updating the pak descriptions. In principle, anybody who is registered on sourceforge can be promoted to a maintainer of the pages (and it would be easy to add/autodetect a spanisch version, since we even have php-support there and using css much).

The only thing is, that is needs to be done ... and then things drop back to me. (I also started to shorten and realing the wagon for the new diagonal, to be able to release something soon, even though I may not be the most qualified for this job.) Things are done, by whomever does something. I stopped long ago to rely on other volunteer for crucial staff. I ask, and when they do (we all are volunteers) I cheer, and when not I do it myself, if needed. Or it is left lying around.

(You know it: "This calls for immediate action -- let discuss" ftom Meaning of life, M. Python)

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2008, 09:01:21 AM »
Well, we all know you're not the Messiah. I should know... I've followed a few.... ;)

Now seriously, that was what I meant. I guess those small projects remain undone because people don't how to contribute, there's no manager or simply they are not interesting enough. IMHO, the most important point is to supply the means to get things done, and the congratulate us if finally they are carried out, not just talk and expect people to figure out how they can take part. Don't you think so?

Offline prissi

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2008, 09:13:09 AM »
I never claimed to be a messiahs, but aparently only false people do so ... More seriously, I cannot order somebody at doing stuff, as I do not want to be ordered in my spare time. If somebody feels the need to do it, I am the least one to stop him. (And furthermore, the source of a website is easily downloadable for everyone.) Thus virtually everyone can edit the webpage and post it here.

But saying that the webpage needs editing will not edit it ...

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2008, 09:36:16 AM »
There's no Messiah in here! There's a mess, all right, but no messiah...

Of course, this is a hobby but we can't say "this needs to be done" and expect people to figure out how to do it, specially people that's new in the community and are eager to contribute but don't know where to start(I'm talking in general, not only about this small project)

IMHO, we should say "talk with this person, search there, start with this task or wait a few days and I'll put you in contact with the right person" . Basically  more provide facilities, you know. That's all. A who's who diagram in simutrans community would be a good begining.

P.S: this is the last monthy phyton's quote, I promise,  but prissi started, and a good fanboy cannot resists... :D

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2008, 04:30:28 AM »
There's no Messiah in here! There's a mess, all right, but no messiah...

Maybe me?

just kidding...

I could have opened a topic (and I thought to do so a lot of times) like "Let's raise Simutrans up" or "Let's change everything to better in Simutrans Community"... but I didn't so because I know that everything needs to be improved, a few or much; otherwise, I know trying to change everything is now too heavy for a small community - not just small, also nice, friendly and peaceful community ;). Then let's discuss about our door entrance of community before discussing about everything else.

But firstly I'd want to expose some thoughts of mine: I wouldn't say disorganized community, I would say "unnorganized" community. It's a quite different. There's no mess but too few people for lots of works, then we see what we are seeing. A thing is you get into a room full of stuffs and you don't know where is each thing = disorganization, chaos. Another thing is you get into a room almost empty, some things are misplaced, others no, but you can get see anything and can get control over anything yet = no organization, but no chaos yet.

Simutrans just needs more people (see my post above). Just it, we are far from the end of the world (did I say something wrong?). Simutrans has a big potential, that's THE why Simutrans has got a lot of projects, but, once we don't have enough people then we have some "stopped" and "unfinished" projects, including our sites.

Also I wouldn't say: "we only discuss; too few work". Again, we stumbled on the same problem: too few people. There are a lot of things we need to do to solve this problem, but at the first sight, we need to put in order what we have got, our tutorials, docs, sites, materials, resources etc... we have an excellent material, just we need to facilitate access to them for new people. Think if you were a programmer or artist, how will you get informations about how to contribute with Simutrans project? Today you have to find by yourself. Then, let's fix the things starting from main simutrans sites:

1) Updating and revamping http://simutrans.sourceforge.net. We need guarantee that a visitor from simutrans.sourceforge.net can get access to the main Simutrans material, tools, downloads, and ours forums. How about a "Get involved" page explaining how to contribute with Simutrans?

2) Each language will have a single page with what is most important of Simutrans: what is Simutrans and some screen, download (GetSimutrans and/or SimuSetup), link pointing to a language board or forum, a link pointing to simutrans.sourceforge.net and another link pointing to a page with important stuffs about Simutrans (tutorial, tools, wiki, translations etc).

3) Updating simutrans.com with new links to 1) and 2).

I know revamping our site network won't solve all our problems here. But it's a beginning. After we have put in order our door entrance of the community then we can think of things that are a bit more aggressive: publishing Simutrans in communities and sites dedicated to programing, game making, pixel art and so on... we have already some promotional videos and good material for adverting Simutrans, why don't we use them? New people will come in and they will find anything easily.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 04:50:35 AM by IgorTekton »

Offline Color42

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2008, 07:12:23 AM »
3) Not all visitors speak English. I propused a while ago that each language should have at least a Language page introducing visitor, briefly and in their own language, what is Simutrans, and informing our important works and links, e. g. Forum, GetSimutrans, Simutrans SourceForge etc. http://pt.simutrans.com is a sample of my idea.  I could say "let's translate whole simutrans.sourceforge", but it might be a pain, then I think a page per language explaining Simutrans and pointing main sites would be very good.

In regards to that webpage would it be possible to make so sort of language template so the page could always be the same and the user that comes to it can just selected the language they want displayed, If i remember right the first Simutrans page had this type of option.
As for translating or setting up such a page I could consider doing that for Swedish once I'm done with translating the game.How ever I suck at graphic stuff, but I know enough code to manage my self so if there would be a default page that could be used that would help allot I think and also bring all the community in under umbrella so to speak.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2008, 03:07:24 PM »
I think www.simutrans.com should point to simutrans.sourceforge.net...  :)

Done... (some days ago). Try EN link.

In regards to that webpage would it be possible to make so sort of language template so the page could always be the same and the user that comes to it can just selected the language they want displayed, If i remember right the first Simutrans page had this type of option.

I said once my idea is to create a intro page per language (excepting EN, JA and DE(?)). My will is to start a discussion about this intro page this week among Devotees.

A thing I'd like to know is if there's a way of editing http://simutrans.sourceforge.net by myself. Obviously I will speak about what I plan firstly.

Offline robofish

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2008, 04:06:59 PM »
In regards to that webpage would it be possible to make so sort of language template so the page could always be the same and the user that comes to it can just selected the language they want displayed, If i remember right the first Simutrans page had this type of option.
As for translating or setting up such a page I could consider doing that for Swedish once I'm done with translating the game.How ever I suck at graphic stuff, but I know enough code to manage my self so if there would be a default page that could be used that would help allot I think and also bring all the community in under umbrella so to speak.
I'm currently working on a multi language cms (content management system) for simutrans websites. The users language is detected automatically (of course also manual change) and the text are presented in his native language, if available. The creators of the website would not have to mind about HTML and design, because the cms does this for them. Pages would be created in english first and translations could be added afterwards. As multiple users could be added so that they can login and translate pages, thus not all the work has to be done by one person.
Also other pages on simutrans.com could use the language-selection-system (also seperately from the cms) and the language could be stored global, in a cookie - if the user allowes cookies.
While the frontend is almost ready, the admin-interface will take some time.
This is just an offer for the community, if not wished, i would stop working on this, otherwise suggestions could be included - the earlier, the better.

Offline VS

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2008, 06:29:37 PM »
How about integrating it with the site currently at sf.net? Maybe that isn't the best word. Is it possible to import its data and layout?

Offline robofish

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2008, 06:37:31 PM »
sure - that's my ambition, although i'm currently working with Kristian's (stormoog's) theme.

Offline VS

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2008, 06:44:47 PM »
Perfect! This means the new site will be instantly available in English and translatable into other languages, right?

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2008, 06:53:14 PM »
I'm currently working on a multi language cms (content management system) for simutrans websites.

Why didn't you tell me about it before?!  :(

Seems interesting. Can we see a slight preview? :-*

Later I want to know more details.

EDIT: I'd like too much to discuss the content of Simutrans Sites. I think we need to redirect such contents to attract new people to get involved with Simutrans projects, like coding, add-ons and texts. I thought even of creating a "Get involved" page like Blender's: http://www.blender.org/community/get-involved
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 06:57:18 PM by IgorTekton »

Offline VS

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2008, 06:59:30 PM »
For what it's worth, the old 128 page had this, too.

Offline robofish

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2008, 07:57:15 PM »
For what it's worth, the old 128 page had this, too.
I'm still mourning napik's page indeed, it was simply great.
nice that prissi recovered at least most of it :)

Offline VS

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2008, 07:59:47 PM »
So you want it back?

Offline robofish

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2008, 08:23:33 PM »
So you want it back?
hm..
How about integrating it with the site currently at sf.net? Maybe that isn't the best word. Is it possible to import its data and layout?

I don't actually want *that* page back, but I would like to use the design and content (if permitted) that was shipped over to sf.net

I'm not sure I got you right somehow ...

Offline VS

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2008, 08:29:57 PM »
The importing was about sf.net pages.

The "want back" was about 128's pages.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2008, 09:00:42 PM »
Then.... I don't know if you all understood a thing of I think: I prefer a small and complete work than a big and unfinished work.

When I said "I would like an intro page per language" I actually meant "a single" page. Why? I DO know how is hard to finish anything big in a community. I prefer a single page with what's most important of Simutrans in all languages and done, working well, than various versions of simutrans.sourceforge, one finished, another not, another starting from scratch...and so on...

I do not want to limit anyone, just I wouldn't like to open a big work that could fall in "yet another unfinished" work.

If we had a site - easy to translate, update and edit, how Robofish proposed - that at least serve to introduce a visitor to Simutrans, capable of giving them a Download page, ways of finding help (wikies), links to forums, and ways of visitor to get involved with Simutrans, may be a single page, I will be very happy. :D

I hope you all understood my point.

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2008, 09:28:14 PM »
Yes.

Offline Color42

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2008, 01:59:11 AM »
I do not want to limit anyone, just I wouldn't like to open a big work that could fall in "yet another unfinished" work.

Have to agree with Igor on this better to start small then to take on to much and never finishing.
A webiste with a CMS would do the trick for sure.

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Simutrans sites discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2008, 08:27:20 AM »
I'm agree too. It's better to start with small tasks that can we can achieve. Overall, when the task is related with translating, which is not the funniest part of Simutrans development.. ::)

In reference to the CMS, just one thing for robofish. I usually work with Moodle, a famous LMS (Learning Management System) implemented in PHP and it uses a simple and fast way to provide multi-language support. With just one funcion called get_string() with the string that needs to be translated as parameter and a set of files that contain all translated strings, you have a powerfull and easy way to support all language you need. If you're interested, send me a PM and I may give you more info. I think it's worth to consider it, overall if you haven't start or you're in the early stages of development process.