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Offline uci

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pusher engine
« on: May 10, 2011, 12:06:35 PM »
Is there a reason not to have a pusher engine in pak128?

Offline Zeno

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2011, 04:30:40 PM »
Probably could be done by not adding constraints to a loco, but never tried. Never seen a real one, although they probably exist :)

Offline Erik

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2011, 06:53:51 PM »
The add-on with Dutch trains (NS-pak) has such locomotives.
So yes it is possible and it exists.

Offline uci

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2011, 07:13:28 PM »
The add-on with Dutch trains (NS-pak) has such locomotives.
So yes it is possible and it exists.
Thanks.

Indeed, they exist in reality, and sometimes we "need" them in Simutrans , for example in large convoys.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 02:56:10 PM »
I think (if I remember correctly, that is) constraints were added to pak 128 engines a long(!) time ago - and for a while not even double traction was possible then. This was fixed later, but maybe we should remove constraints from most/all engines completely now...?

Offline Zeno

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 03:14:35 PM »
Well, removing all of them would be an option. Another thing is whether it makes sense allowing put different engines together... I'm afraid I don't have knowledge enough to give a solid opinion :-/

Offline Lmallet

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 05:15:32 PM »
To support Dirk's comment, I think locomotive restrictions should be reviewed in pak128.  For example, the Budd passenger cars were pulled by all kinds of locomotives, not just the E8s (and vice versa, the E8 could pull other cars than Budds, but would not have been powerful enough to pull freight cars).  Many Budds are still being pulled today by modern locos (look at Via Rail Canada for example).

Offline VS

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 08:09:04 PM »
I think Napik wanted to improve the game and make it more diverse by forcing some of these semi-artificial constraints... Take the following as somewhat dubious, since it's all from my ementaler memory ;)

His calculations showed that a locomotive gives maximal revenue when loaded to 60% speed slowdown (in the context of prices back then, not sure how much is this still true).

Another argument was that small locos are cheap, so that stacking them would yield more economical convoys than big engines. (I guess this could also be one of the reasons for high infrastructure costs?)

I'm not saying it should stay that way, though :)

Offline paco_m

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 07:50:02 AM »
Well, removing all of them would be an option. Another thing is whether it makes sense allowing put different engines together... I'm afraid I don't have knowledge enough to give a solid opinion :-/

This pusher engines or secondary pull engines or even both (depends on train config) are used at nearly all railroads crossing the alps. Normally they are only used to support the trains going up to the top (pass) and there they are removed from the convoy and return to support the next train. In most cases this supporting engines are powerful but old engines that due to low max speeds (70-100km/h) are not used for normal operation any more.
So it is quite rare that the supporting engine is of the same type as the trains main engine ;)

Offline VS

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 11:59:16 AM »
Well, since adding dynamically is not possible, let's concentrate on other uses...

Offline Zeno

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2011, 01:47:43 PM »
Right, it would be impossible to simulate that behaviour since the pusher would restrict the convoi's max speed - in case of old powerful and slow engine used as pusher. Dunno if would be useful to add an engine at the end of a convoi, f.i. when talking about low power locos.

Offline Lmallet

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2011, 04:58:03 PM »
Another thought: in real life adding remote control locomotives to the middle of a train is often used on very long trains.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2011, 09:33:18 PM »
True, but we have a maximum length of 24 vehicles in simutrans - that hardly qualifies as very long train, compared to real life, right?  ;)

On the other hand, I personally  like the freedom to do certain things as eye candy once in a while... but then again, allowing engines to push instead of pull trains, affects the economical balancing of the game. Pulling engins must fit into stations (requiring longer stations with higher cost and maintenance) while pushing engines can stay outside... difficult to say how big this influence would be in the end, but it would be there.

Offline VS

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 09:50:07 PM »
Ah I forgot one argument, too - stacking weaker locos means that stronger locos are redundant, so making locos "head only" forces player to use wider range of engines.

Offline Zeno

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 10:02:27 PM »
stacking weaker locos means that stronger locos are redundant, so making locos "head only" forces player to use wider range of engines.
Well, you can stack weak locos in front and ignore stronger locos anyway :P

[...] pushing engines can stay outside... difficult to say how big this influence would be in the end, but it would be there.
I would say it wouldn't make the difference. You pay RC anyway for the pushing engine, but despite keeping it out of the station I'd say you could benefit from it only in fewer cases (stacking quick locos with low power).

Anyway I'd rather keep things like they are, with locos in front. With such short trains we have in ST it makes no sense to me putting an engine in the back of a convoi.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2011, 10:21:49 PM »
I wan't actually thinking about running costs, but station maintenance there, which IIRC is a major factor in the beginning of a game - at least last time I tried freight services by train in 1930 (but that was several months ago). The effect will certainly shrink in more developed games - but sooner or later you'll drown in money anyway... ;)

Offline paco_m

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 11:13:20 PM »
Anyway I'd rather keep things like they are, with locos in front. With such short trains we have in ST it makes no sense to me putting an engine in the back of a convoi.

I agree on that, the cases when real trains are pushed or supported from the end or even middle can not be simulated in Simutrans anyways (would require dynamic convoy arrangements like in RT) so I think there is no need to have this engine at the end feature here ;)

Offline greenling

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2011, 07:32:25 AM »
excuse me i like be pushed train.
In Germany it´s the push a train big in useing most InterCity have a steeringcar and the most
Regioalexpress have a Steeringcar.
Trains they be not be pushed are be geting rare.

greenling

Offline uci

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2011, 09:21:43 AM »
excuse me i like be pushed train.
You can do what I did. Change some sources in pak128 and create an addon as you like.

But, I should say that pak64 does have pushing engines. This was the reason that I asked for it.

Offline Václav

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Re: pusher engine
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2011, 09:45:06 AM »
All what is need is to have locomotives with possibility to be at the end of train.

I don't know situation in locomotives what are included into main set but you can download Czech ones available in Czech board. Most of them can be set on the end of trains - they are for pak128, of course, when this topic is inside pak128 board.