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Author Topic: pak128.Britain wishlist  (Read 8280 times)

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Offline The Hood

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pak128.Britain wishlist
« on: April 02, 2012, 06:21:02 PM »
As I never really play the pak, I'd be interested to know what graphics or objects people think are most obviously missing. The "new" graphics to-do list (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=3009.0) is rather old now, and although there are still many things on it not in the set a lot of things have been added in the meantime. What would people most like to see next?

Disclaimer: I'm not promising to do what people say here, but if there is popular demand for something I'm more likely to focus on that.

My thoughts:
- elevated ways (faffy to draw, but probably the most important game-play wise)
- ships (urgh - not at all inspired by these, but we are lacking. I would particularly value more detailed suggestions of which ones to draw and their technical data)
- planes (Milko is slowly but steadily working through these, so I'm inclined to let him continue at his own pace)
- narrow gauge (how much would people use these?)
- more citybuildings (greater variety - which levels/eras?)

Of course now is as good a time as any to remind people that they are more than welcome to contribute their own graphics!

Offline alexbaettig

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2012, 06:40:46 PM »
Quote
- narrow gauge (how much would people use these?)


I use them quite often in early years. They are quite cheap in concerning the running costs and also during building. The problem is a bit their slow speed but in early years they are rather practical. Around 1930 however they become "outdated".
What would be nice is a tunnel.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 06:54:16 PM »
Ships:  How about hovercraft, for the 1968-2005 period... see Hoverspeed (wikipedia)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 07:24:52 PM »
We might be able to do with more modern 'buses, minibuses, and a bottom-contact third rail type to go with the DLR trains, as well as passenger river boats (and passenger packet canal boats).

Offline The Hood

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2012, 07:59:59 PM »

I use them quite often in early years. They are quite cheap in concerning the running costs and also during building. The problem is a bit their slow speed but in early years they are rather practical. Around 1930 however they become "outdated".
What would be nice is a tunnel.

That's pretty close to historical - not bad given I didn't balance it at all properly!

Ships:  How about hovercraft, for the 1968-2005 period... see Hoverspeed (wikipedia)
We might be able to do with more modern 'buses, minibuses, and a bottom-contact third rail type to go with the DLR trains, as well as passenger river boats (and passenger packet canal boats).

Good ideas - the more specific the better though. Keep them coming.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2012, 08:08:55 PM »
If you want specific, how about a new 'bus for London?

Offline Junna

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2012, 08:16:15 PM »
More lemons!

Especially the 4DD. Needs something with over 1,000 capacity for an 8-carriage set.

Offline The Hood

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 09:04:45 PM »
More lemons!

Especially the 4DD. Needs something with over 1,000 capacity for an 8-carriage set.

errr...??

Offline AP

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 09:28:01 PM »
I suspect the narrow gauge balancing may actually be a bit too favourable, but that's not unwelcome for the time being!!

I'd like to see narrow gauge freight, with speed limits the same as passenger stock to allow mixed trains.

 I'd also like to see a freight train that incurs no operating cost downhill if that can be coded - operating like the ffestiniog gravity slate trains. Would be of great and realistic use for other movement of bulk goods to (anything from mountain to port really).

I may have said it before, but I'd like to see narrow gauge stock available beyond the 1930s, continental-europe style. So that if one is playing a map for which it is viable, it doesn't suddenly die a death in the early c20th. The motor-car dominated model of c20th transport isn't the only way to do things, just the one we chose.


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 09:52:31 PM »
If we are having narrow gauge freight, it'd be rather good to have a new industry type: the slate mine, which supplies builders' yards, but becomes obsolete in the middle of the 20th century. They would tend to have low outputs such as to be compatible with narrow gauge capacities.

Offline Junna

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 11:06:52 PM »
errr...??

Things that weren't mass-produced and have been more or less excluded from the set as far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4DD

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 11:12:58 PM »
Hmm, also, perhaps some dedicated motorway graphics...?

Offline Milko

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 06:27:36 AM »
Hello

If I have to prioritize the list of things to do in the first place i would put citybuilding. I've seen some posts that talked about the fact that in the years 1930 - 1950 the space occupied by the city explodes. This phenomenon is due to the fact that in the years 1930 - 1950 are absent palaces medium / high density. I put it then, if possible, citybuildings first.
Another thing I miss is the fences with which to determine areas of airports, stations, ports ...
But I play very little so I guess my vision of things is partial.
Giuseppe

Offline isidoro

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 04:21:39 PM »
I also have used narrow gauge.  I would like it to be competitive for hilly terrain.  That is to say, good (powerful) climbers with moderate top speed and a good price, to cover the places where regular trains are not competitive...

But it may happen that this idea is not historical...


Offline AP

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2012, 06:39:50 PM »
Slate quarry is a good idea indeed, but...
A new industry type: the slate mine, which supplies builders' yards, but becomes obsolete in the middle of the 20th century.
But the closures weren't obsolescence, they were a result of cheaper slate available from elsewhere, not the industry becoming obsolete. Buildings were still being roofed with slate (the builders merchants still demands them, in game terms). I think we need to be careful about forcing every game down the same path. On a map with no replacement source of slates (maybe a "port" industry, to simulate the rest of the world), why would the quarries stop supplying? [and incidentally, the people at Ty-Mawr quarry would have a thing or two to say to anyone who thinks uk quarries are dead!]

I would like it to be competitive for hilly terrain.  That is to say, good (powerful) climbers with moderate top speed and a good price, to cover the places where regular trains are not competitive...But it may happen that this idea is not historical...
interesting idea though, and would create a definite niche.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 11:10:04 PM »
Hmm, I thought that slate for roofing was largely replaced by tiles in the mid/late 20th century...?

Offline greenling

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2012, 12:48:04 PM »
A update for the Pak128.Britain(exp)?


Offline alexbaettig

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2012, 01:01:19 PM »
Quote
Hmm, I thought that slate for roofing was largely replaced by tiles in the mid/late 20th century...?
Well even though it was no longer fashionable slate is still used for other purposes. For example in high end bathrooms slate is used as floor tiling and also in kitchens (I do not advise to be inspired by this. It is both extremely expensive and fragile – once you drop something oily you'll never ever get it cleaned.) It is also used for headstones and the newest developments concerning slate is shale gas and oil. So maybe these quarries could rather than being made obsolete change their production to gas and oil. Only as an idea…

Offline kierongreen

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2012, 01:13:41 PM »
Shale gas is from deep (many km) below the surface, whereas slate for building was mined at the surface usually.

Offline alexbaettig

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2012, 01:16:45 PM »
Yes of course. Just brainstorming…
Maybe something which is more easy are for narrow gauge are some tramway-like rails… like on the Isle of Man.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 01:22:04 PM by alexbaettig »

Offline Milko

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 01:55:47 PM »
Hello Greenling

A update for the Pak128.Britain(exp)?

James is currently working on the code of simutrans exp.
An update of pak128BritExp is then expected but will not be soon.

Giuseppe


Offline AP

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 07:18:24 PM »
Hmm, I thought that slate for roofing was largely replaced by tiles in the mid/late 20th century...?
There was a large increase in uk housebuilding post 1918, and ever since, mostly cheaply tiled-roofs (ie suburbia). I suspect slate demand remained at least constant meanwhile, it's the superior product. You don't get many clay-roofed churches or big country houses.

Offline merry

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 10:29:13 PM »
Slate's big benefit is low weight: it's thin but effective.

Clay or concrete tiles have to be thick to have strength, the layers of slate are strong even when thin. Even ancient stone rooves have to be quite thick to be strong enough not to break under weather and self wieght - slate also does not have a water-absorbent surface.
To be fair, in some regions clay or stone were already the norm, and the buildings made to suit the heavy roof - but I know you can't just put a modern tile roof on a frame built for slate! For instance, pantiles [the wavy red tiles] in East Anglia are reported to be prevalent because they were virtually free, being brought back as ballast in the empty holds of sailing ships exporting goods to parts of the world from England.

Why does this matter? Well, as roof building techniques improved, and probably the ease of getting cut timber in towns, it was possible to build a strong enough roof to use the heavy products and be cheap in most locations. The change in materials was a result of lots of changing economic and transport and trade circumstances.

I suppose this history isn't key, but it is useful background to help understand what is a realistic simulation.

Offline sdog

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2012, 01:27:30 AM »
reading this, we really should get a rudimentary geological map below the game maps :-)

Offline wlindley us

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2012, 02:16:45 PM »
Tying together multiple discussions here (locating early mills by rivers, other plants by water, sawmills in forests, etc.)...

It seems that to determine all the existing features, we may need:
  • Climate -- combining temperature and rainfall: above surface environment (exists)
  • Surface -- Soil type (new)
  • Texture -- Hilly versus flat (exists, but not currently considered)
  • Water -- proximity to surface water, rivers, lakes, seas (exists)
  • Sub-surface -- Mineral and oil deposits
A map of France might have one type of grapes that grow in a cool climate, on a south-facing hill within four tiles of water; while another type of grape grows identically except on east-facing hills.


Oil drills and rigs would naturally collect over oil deposits.


This is an extra level of detail, but think of the nifty mini-maps we would have!




Offline waerth

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2012, 05:26:51 PM »
reading this, we really should get a rudimentary geological map below the game maps :-)

LOL that is so dwarf fortress like. The maker of that game is just including minecarts and rails into the game LOL and simutrans will include stonelayers. Sounds like the two games merging!

Offline waerth

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2012, 05:28:24 PM »
Anyway my suggestion.

Low cost small passenger ferries (not just for rivers). I now have to use 400+ pax ferries running huge debts, while a 100 pax ferry would fill it nicer.

Offline sdog

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2012, 03:53:07 AM »
@damnit, i was found out. We talked about geological properties in a thread on more refined tunnel costs. (that would go way beyond dwarf fortress, where one can tunnel as fast in chalk or gypsum as in limestone.) I had a thought about simutrans trams too, when i read the mine cart update. I expect the focus will be more on catastrophic failures though. I wonder if ToadyOne he has to introduce signals ;-P

Offline waerth

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2012, 09:40:11 AM »
Just had a game idea .... Dwarf Trans LOL

Offline waerth

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2012, 09:53:28 AM »
I wonder if ToadyOne he has to introduce signals ;-P

LOL SDog Toady One is reading the Simutrans Forums, see what he wrote in his devlog today:
Quote
I added track "stop" constructions, which greatly increase the friction in a square and cause (most) carts to stop (say, blocks, narrowing grooves, whatever might work).

Looks like Dwarf Trans is being programmed :p

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2012, 11:08:42 AM »
Just had a game idea .... Dwarf Trans LOL

Hmm - that reminds me: if we are after a wish list, we need more narrow gauge vehicles...

jayem

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2012, 11:40:21 PM »
Slate quarry is a good idea indeed, but...But the closures weren't obsolescence, they were a result of cheaper slate available from elsewhere, not the industry becoming obsolete. ...(maybe a "port" industry, to simulate the rest of the world), ...
(I think it would be more a game-engine request/pak spinoff than a pak but anyhow I'll throw it in the air in case it's not so unrealistic)
One thing I've found in my games is that a station big enough to be interesting, takes up a fair proportion of a small map and leaves no space for the actual railway.  (perhaps I ought to play on bigger maps) and particularly boats/planes felt wrong.  And I had an idea that an external connection tile would allow you to play an alternative small scale game.

This would act a bit like cross between a depot, a (super)factory and a station.  The vehicles would enter, disappear for a given time.  They would continue using money as if still running.  They would then change their goods as though at a station with lots of factories and houses in range.  Then a bit later they would reappear on the map.

It would then feel a little like you were looking after London or Leeds as part of a bigger network, or exporting to China...

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2012, 12:33:49 AM »
That is most definitely an extension request, as it would require support by the game engine.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2012, 01:07:01 AM »
Another request - left-handed signals.

(Jayem - in Experimental, it is possible to change the scale)

Offline The Hood

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2012, 12:08:19 PM »
@jayem - I would strongly support your request for external connections, but this is mostly an extension request. One possibility within the current program is to code a factory in the water which is the "external connection" which would accept/produce very large numbers of goods. I'm not a very big fan of this for a couple of reasons: 1) it needs  sea connection not air/road/rail. 2) it involves the vehicles only going a short distance before turning round when in fact they would have to travel much longer distances. 3) it might be in the middle of a lake in the middle of the map, not near the edge.

Offline AP

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2012, 04:25:34 PM »
Quote
I would strongly support your request for external connections, but this is mostly an extension request. One possibility within the current program is to code a factory
I think coding it as a factory with a large number of non-codependent goods demanded/produced could indeed be a good way to do it.

Your comments 1&2 are why I i think coding the Port (on land), not the "external connection" (at sea) might work better - the vehicles don't have to travel off map at all, it's just assumed. For 3, maybe restrict the building to occuring on a water-edge tile within 5 cells of the map-edge, if that can be done?

If it could be coded so that new goods come online / old ones deminsh, with time, that would seem clever too. Or maybe e.g. a "c19th port" gets superceded by a "container port" later on.

jayem

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2012, 10:26:14 PM »
Tried experimental and a more up to date pak following James comment.
Tube lines look amazing.  Victorian cities (especially the variety of churches and houses) likewise.
Not yet used to the passengers fussiness and boarding time, but it feels like it's going to be even more immersive than vanilla.
So all in all, an amazing addition to an amazing game.

Offline AP

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Re: pak128.Britain wishlist
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2012, 06:40:50 AM »
Not yet used to the passengers fussiness and boarding time, but it feels like it's going to be even more immersive than vanilla.

It is. Word of warning though, the balancing isn't done yet, it's much more challenging to make a profit.