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Offline jamespetts gb

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Station recalibration
« on: May 19, 2012, 12:59:39 PM »
On my Github repository, I have just pushed some significant changes to the way in which the prices/capacities of railway stations are balanced. In summary, the changes are:
  • basic platforms no longer have a capacity (except at Underground stations);
  • extension buildings have a higher capacity;
  • wooden platforms/buildings cost less to build but more to maintain than equivalent brick or stone structures;
  • concrete/steel platforms/buildings cost more to build but less to maintain than equivalent brick or stone structures;
  • it is more cost-efficient to use extension buildings rather than platforms with built-in buildings, but using extension buildings takes more space, so might cost more where space is limited;
  • stations are more expensive overall; and
  • there are economies of scale to be had such that larger buildings cost less per unit of capacity than smaller buildings.
The intention is to provide realistic incentives to use the various different types of buildings, and sufficient economic differentiation between them, as well as making unrealistic stations comprising nothing other than basic platforms impossible.

I should be very grateful for any comments/testing in respect of this - any comments will be much appreciated.

Offline Carl

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 05:01:26 PM »
One quick comment. I'm not sure if no-capacity platforms are realistic -- I can think of several stations (e.g. Burley Park, Burnley Manchester Road) which have no station building and consist entirely of platforms. A reduction in capacity seems appropriate, but perhaps not a reduction to zero.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 06:18:58 PM »
Hmm. Images found on Google show Burley Park to have shelters on the platforms:

,

and likewise Burnley Manchester Road:

,

the latter of which also used to have full buildings:



I presume that the "shelter only" stations use ticket machines for ticket issuing, and would once have had full buildings, as with Burnley Manchester Road.

Offline Carl

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 06:25:17 PM »
Ah, ok -- I didn't realise you were classing shelters as station buildings rather than just parts of the platform.

I believe that Burnley Manchester Road was re-opened with "temporary" platforms which have never been replaced.

Offline greenling

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2012, 06:46:02 PM »
Jamespetts
I find that´s Plattforms without capacity in a inner City be useless.
And extension buildings in a inner City to build kills passengers and Post and it in addition very expensive.
Capacity for plattforms and extension buildings it´s ok.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 07:07:02 PM by greenling »

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2012, 06:53:05 PM »
I agree that platforms should have a minimal (but not 0 passenger capacity) - 8 or so would be reasonable. So a 4 tile two track station (8 tiles total) might take 64 passengers for example. Enough that a rural halt can make do, but not a station serving even a small town.

Offline greenling

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2012, 07:11:37 PM »
Quote
Jamespetts I find that´s Plattforms without capacity in a inner City be useless.
 And extension buildings in a inner City to build kills passengers and Post and it in addition very expensive.[/quo
te]
capacity upgrad, by overbuild from Plattform are better!
extension buildings use i only then i have place to build.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 07:18:33 PM by greenling »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2012, 08:12:10 PM »
The idea is that the buildings, rather than the platforms themselves, determine the capacity - people book their tickets, wait and obtain refreshments in buildings, not, except if their wait is very short, by standing around on the platforms. The platforms with built-in buildings are designed for the urban situations to which Greenling refers.

Offline Carl

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2012, 08:18:33 PM »
Given that shelters count as buildings, could one have a platform tile with a shelter on it?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2012, 08:27:34 PM »
I had considered that, but do not have the time presently.

Offline el_slapper

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 11:10:07 AM »
Makes me think about This french station next to mine. There is absolutely nothing on the platforms, besides a few benches. 25 meters further is a lone building, "Bâtiment voyageurs de la gare", where you can build tickets, but not take shelter.

I know this is not Britain, but IMHO this bare station is enough for quite a number of passengers(I've seen dozens waiting). Shelters help, of course, but a shelterless station should not have zero capacity IMHO(that's just my personal opinion, not something written in the holy book).

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 11:12:21 AM »
But that station has a building where one can buy tickets; it is not a completely blank station with nothing but platforms.

Offline Carl

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2012, 11:17:58 AM »
At any rate, I agree with kierongreen's suggestion -- though I think that a capacity as low as 4 might be reasonable.

I agree that platforms should have a minimal (but not 0 passenger capacity) - 8 or so would be reasonable. So a 4 tile two track station (8 tiles total) might take 64 passengers for example. Enough that a rural halt can make do, but not a station serving even a small town.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 11:25:02 AM »
Hmm - but even a rural halt would generally have some sort of building:



And see also here.

Offline Carl

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2012, 11:42:00 AM »
It does seem like in such cases the "building" could reasonably be considered part of the platform, rather than an extension to it.


Similarly: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TeesValleyLine_Tees-side_Airport2.JPG
and
http://www.trainspots.co.uk/700-799/blackpool/blackpool-south-2.jpg

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2012, 12:10:11 PM »
As indicated, I hope one day, when I have time, to draw some platform shelter buildings as part of the platform, too, with perhaps a capacity of 20 or so.

Offline Carl

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2012, 12:11:29 PM »
That seems like the best solution. Sorry for repeating myself :)

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 02:05:41 PM »
Brick and concrete platforms "with buildings" already exist... so all we need is to borrow and modify their buildings for the wooden platforms... yes?

Perhaps I could draw a station building or two along these lines:

Crewkerne
Reading (1865)

hoping to overcome the main objection (not enough room in crowded cities for more than one or two tiles for station buildings) by providing a sufficiently large-capacity one- or two-tile station...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 02:14:19 PM »
WLindley,

thank you very much for the offer. The position is slightly more complicated, as the existing brick/concrete platforms with buildings are rather higher capacity units, taking 30/31 passengers, and drawn to be used continuously. What we need, really, is a wooden shelter for the wooden platforms and brick platforms, and a concrete shelter for the concrete platforms that is lower capacity (15-20), and drawn to be used singularly (i.e., one per platform).

If you are able to do something like that, that would be most appreciated.

Offline greenling

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 04:08:11 PM »
Jamespetts
I have here a photo from a Railwaystation out germany they have not more working Stationbuilding!
Only a Ticketmachine for passengers!
The user from those Station can 5 minutes befor a train drive.
The waiting on a day with bad weather it at this station very terrible!



At this Station gives a Ticketmachine for passengers,A Newspapershop,plattforms with a Part of Roof and a Busterminal
without Roof.
The waiting at this Station on a Day with bad weather it´s here only to 50% good at bus 10%!


Here gives Only a Ticketmachine for passengers and a Part of Roof !
Here it´s the Waiting at bad weather only at 25% good!



This station have Ticketmachine,Ticketcenter,Newpapperoffice,Shop for Eat drink,Toiletts,
At Each plattform gives two part roof,Saves of baggde,a lift for wheelchair(only at the S-bahn plattform),
Display how can be show traininfo,a telephon box,a busterminal with weathercase´s.

The waiting a this Station it at bad weather 75%good for trains and at busterminal at 10% good!





Then you want be view more Station out germany say it!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 05:28:45 PM by greenling »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 09:04:12 PM »
Even those platforms have shelters, however, and are not just bare platforms; and they would until very recent times have had to have a building in which tickets were issued. Ticket machines are a recent invention.

Offline neroden

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2012, 03:10:53 PM »
I'll give you a bare platform example: fancy tramstops.

And yes, Underground platforms too (though you already mentioned those).

I do think that for "platforms without extension buildings", there are two cases:
(1) Expensive platforms with high capacity for use in cities (these would feature full trainsheds, etc., and cost a lot more than adding buildings to a low-capacity platform).
(2) Very-low-capacity platforms (capacity like a basic bus stop at most) for use on "whistlestops".

When I get a chance, I'll take a more detailed look at the new state of things, but I like your basic idea here. 

I do think platforms should have a small capacity, though -- people do wait on the platform.  Perhaps the same capacity as a small bus stop would be logical (people wait on the sidewalk for the bus, and the platform has at least as much space as a sidewalk).

I forget: are we using separate passenger vs. mail vs. freight capacities (we should).  I think logically a passenger platform should have a small but useful passenger capacity (similar to a bus stop), a smaller mail capacity (1 or 2 maybe) and no freight capacity.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2012, 04:34:21 PM »
Type no. (1) is already present and intended - there are two types of platforms that have in-built buildings, the highest capacity of which has an overall roof to make a trainshed as you suggest. These are for use where space is at a premium, either as well as or instead of extension buildings.

Type no. (2) I do not think requires completely bare platforms - as discussed above, even the tiniest and most insignificant of halts had shelters. What we could do with when somebody has time to draw one is a platform with small wooden (or later prefabricated steel/glass or concrete) shelter built in, which has a small capacity useful in a small halt (what you call a "whistlestop", I think).

Platforms for trains are not quite equivalent to 'bus stops, however, since railway passengers need to buy a ticket before boarding, whereas 'bus and tram passengers buy the ticket on board, so ticket purchasing facilities (in modern times, a space for a ticket machine will suffice, but in older times a shelter for a person selling tickets would be required) are necessary.

We do indeed make full use of separate passenger/mail/goods capacities throughout Pak128.Britain (both Standard and Experimental versions).

Offline MCollett

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2012, 09:00:00 PM »
Platforms for trains are not quite equivalent to 'bus stops, however, since railway passengers need to buy a ticket before boarding, whereas 'bus and tram passengers buy the ticket on board, so ticket purchasing facilities (in modern times, a space for a ticket machine will suffice, but in older times a shelter for a person selling tickets would be required) are necessary.

That may be typical, but is certainly not a universal rule: I have travelled on trains, both in Britain and elsewhere, where it was quite normal to buy the ticket on board.   

Best wishes,
Matthew

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Station recalibration
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 10:49:56 PM »
some stations have subways or overbridges - some stations have lifts at unstaffed stations - in demark and some countries have those but in UK - there few unstaffed stations with lifts but mostly is on Metro lines or tram lines