What is the proper way to join intermediate industries in a chain?

[jimishol]

I am about to start my multiple try to get a stable game in a rather large map. Before i do so, i would like any advice for intermediate industries where input is a type of good and output is another type of good. Here is my unpleasant experience from my last game.
Year 1750. I decided to do fishing. The chain was fishery (live fish)-fishing port (fish) [let say it FP] - market. (I am not sure but i think i met same behavior in ironworks too)
I constructed a dock D exactly beside the FP and got 4 fishing boats to fish and deliver to dock. So, i had (Dock)-(FP) side by side. There are 3 kind of goods freight, bulk goods, livestock, right? There was no fishing delivery till i understood, the not so clear point, that live fish can not go directly to FP but only through livestock station 1 tile away. I extended Dock with livestock as (LvstckDock) and live fish started to upload to D. Storage of FP started to fill. I completed the chain and, at this point, i want you to assume that the rest of the chain was fine and there were workers both in FP and market. I expected Dock, as simple freight type, to be able to get the fish as food product from FP. But there was no production and meanwhile the storage seemed to be totally full with live fishes. I expanded the uni (LvstckDock) with cargo freight as (FrghtLvstckDock). There was no fish production again. FP did not delivered to the extended dock. I was almost ready to give up of play even simutrans, when i decided to build 2 bus stops. One as expansion to dock D and another at the right side of FP. Now i had side by side (FrghtLvstckStopDock)-FP-simple bus Stop. Right Stop took another name as it didn't unified with dock. When i ordered a pony or horse (i can't recall), with food capacity of 2 crates, to run back and forth from left to right of FP, that is from dock to the 2 tiles away Stop and back to dock, production finally immediately started.
I cannot believe that a bus or horse running a route 2 or 3 tiles long can be the only or the right solution. It seems mostly illogical. Anyway, the next time i intend to build my chain from its end in order to prevent the overstock by input goods. So, let phrase properly my question.

When one has an industry that consumes some input, say bulk, and products another type of output, say long goods, is it obliged to use two separate stations beside it, in order to create product? Output and input of industries uses the same space of storage? I read no, but I cannot explain otherwise the inability to start the production. Is storage capacity of stations different from output and input storages of industries? (Here i would answer yes, considering capacity of stations as goods in transit and that of industries as simple storage. What do you think happened and the production started immediately after a pony was order to start its small back and forth route?
Thank you in advance.

[KneeOn]

I tried to reply and then there was a server outage!

For help on topics like this, it really helps to post a save game (found in documents/simutrans/saves) and screenshots as well as telling us the version number. In extended the latest version 14 is now quite dated and nightlies are played just as much

With your problem, from what you've described it sounds like there was a stop at capacity because its purchaser wasn't covered. 

1. Have you checked that the FP connected to THAT market?
2. Have you checked that the new 2/3 tile away stop doesn't have a fishmonger in?
I know you said you want us to assume that the chain was working but it is important that we are certain. 

It is not clear to me if one must have an 'input' and an 'output' station, but that *might* be a bug and if you were to replicate the steps with instructions on how to replicate with a save game file then James can explore it. 

I hope this is the start of fixing the issue

[zook2]

Not sure if I understand the setup correctly - is the market within the service area (the tiles highlighted in yellow when placing a freight stop) of the fishing port? If so, it's possible that the fish will indeed not be delivered automatically. I've seen that behavior before but I'm not sure if it's always the case.

[jimishol]

Well, i managed to upload the sve file. It is the https://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/big_2_2nd_---_unstuck_upload_fish.sve
In game it is a time that i had just managed to upload live fishes. Just for fun, i tried to play it and produce fish once again by creating additional stop beside the Carpool Fishing port at (450,809), considering that this time i could fix the chain in few moments. Unfortunately for me, I can not produce fishes again despite my new efforts. If you can produce fishes tell me how. I know there is still time for production to start, because i already did it, as i wrote in previous post and i had consumption of lot of fishes the years to come from Blayeydale market.

Unfortunately i have no other suitable save. My idea to delete the additional stop from a working game, so as to stop a successful production, in order to confirm my claim of the necessity of additional stop, can not be done because in the year i am (April 1756) there are neither workers nor consumers and the production already stopped (only charts say that 10 months ago i had production of 38 fishes).

So, the challenge from current sve is to make production of fishes to start, if possible without additional nearby stops. (I believe 95% that the chain though market is OK. 5% some cart near market or in Blayeydale is not proper but i can not remember for sure).
Thank you very much.

hmm. zook2 you posted before i sent my post. No, market is far away and fishes go there by boat too. The route is the only one and clear in map (show networks). Thank you too

[KneeOn]

Hi Jimishol,

What version of extended are you using?

Cheers!
** EDIT **
So having a look using 14.19 (7c09fc9)

Perhaps more regular players can clarify however the market has four types of goods it accepts. Will a market still operate if only one of these four are being delivered?

The fising port has 48/5 goods, but it is not clear why production is 0/5.

Staff shortage, distance or the market not being fully staffed/stocked may all contribute but i'm not certain.

The destination is 22 hours away - is that too far for goods to travel in 1754?
Both market and fishing port have a staff shortage

** FURTHER EDIT **
I added a bulk cargo (because even on extended, stations are goods/pax/mail, not by type) *next* to the fishing port by destroying one of the hovels. Instantly at the next delivery, production started and there are now goods waiting to go.

[zook2]

I did a quick test and connected another market to the port. No luck. Then I let the game run in turbo mode and in September they finally shipped their first fish to Blayeydale. No idea why it took so long. Maybe there is a minimum staffing level below which they don't work at all? But I didn't have any luck yet (December) with the market in Spelsdale(?) despite it being fully staffed. It consumes fruit, but it does not order fish yet.

"Will a market still operate if only one of these four are being delivered?" - Yes.

You do not need the cargo bay or the livestock pens at the port. When you see the cargo icon in the stop window (below passengers and mail) you know it can accept cargo.

[jimishol]

About market a had the same question. But the market consumed fruits for sure. So, it is working.
I compiled my version that is
Simutrans 120.4.1 Extended Nightly development build 14.19
  released Jul 18 2022

Thank you for the testing.
Fish belong to food. In tools i see constructions for bulk goods, livestock pens, simple goods, passengers and mail. How do you explain the adding of bulk goods that seem irrelevant to fish. Are these 5 types just 3? Anyway, i tried to add bulk, like you, but i do not see production. I wait to see ship deliver live fishes and a little more. Did you added a separate stop? I added bulk both at separate, adjusted to FP, stop and as an extension to dock. My production stays zero. And i had a message at FP as red 'Fully stocked'.
May we suppose that production is random?
Can you repeat your success and describe the steps. as 1) built stop at (448,807) 2) build bulk at (449,809) etc
Thank you once more

zook2 thank you too. Without livestock, i could not upload the live fishes. I tried 3 days to deliver fishes and they start to upload once i build the livestock pen. The game is the save just after the first live fishes were uploaded and before i make production to start. I did once , i cannot do it again :( Anyway can you clarify in any case if you build a separate station except the existed dock?

(Totally irrelevant. Can any one see https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,10713.msg201168.html#msg201168 in order not to create a new post with same subject)

[KneeOn]

Hi Jimishol,

To answer the first question, for now yes - there are only freight, pax and mail stops. The bulk/live stock pens are different graphics that the player can select for freight but both will handle any and all freight. 

I did not add a separate stop. I deleted the hovel directly next to the fishing port.

What's interesting is i've just done it again and it was fine, with a short delay before production started. I deleted the stop I placed as well as an extra one next to your existing live stock pen so your station dock was in its original format. 

I will post this as a bug with the steps to replicate behaviour

[jimishol]

zook2 you are right. I found an old save where there was not yet a livestock and after some time i did saw a production of 1 fish!! The production stopped at 1 but indeed there is no need for livestock, as you said and i was wrong.

KneeOn thank you for filling the https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,21796.msg201204/topicseen.html#msg201204 bug. I am still puzzled by the behavior. In https://simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/en_extended_Industry i read

In Simutrans-Extended, the number of goods that can be in transit to any given industry at any one time is based on the proportion of the average trip time to deliver the goods to the time that it takes to consume the receiving industry's full store.

and i am puzzled more.
What it means?
Do the game calculate the average max speed from vehicles in the shortest chain connecting the industries?
Market, 84km away from origin port, wants 28fish/month. My ship travel at 15km/h. So, it will need about 6hours or 1 month to go to market. If i could use road with speed about 5km/h i would need 3 months to go to market. Does the game divide the consumption demand and in last case we see 28cr/month but actually to see a production of 28/3 because that is the amount that we are allowed to transfer? I totally cannot understand the in quote text but the feature it describes is it possible to affect the production?

Also can any one explain the numbers in industry information? Help says items in storage and in transit, where in brackets is the maximum of these). In extended i do not see brackets. In FP i see Consumption 70/5 0/21 55crates/month. Do the denominators are the normal maximum ? So, maximum live fish in storage is 5 but it is overstocked to 70?

[zook2]

1. You see the little icons over each building in the toolbars? They tell you if the building accepts passengers, mail or cargo. For example, the goods warehouse accepts mail and cargo. There are plenty of goods types (click Lists (next to the Line Manager button) and then Goods types), but they all count as Cargo as far as stops are concerned. So all you *definitely* needed was the Goods Dock within 3 tiles of the fishing port. Plus any land stop for wagons. Any land stop would do because if it touches the dock, it is considered one stop and you already have a cargo capability there because of the Goods dock.

2. If I connect the market in Long Spelcester and send a food boat there, the fishing port shows an estimate of 3:29 hours to get there. That might not be the correct time, but I think it's used to calculate somehow how many fish the market orders (just as you said). The market initially has a max. amount they will order of 2. While I wrote this post it increased to 19. Still a  lot less then the 230 the first market can order. But the point is that a faraway consumer tries to get more product in the "pipeline".

3. Consumption numbers for industry are IIRC:
- how much they currently store, and the maximum they can store (I think there is a setting that prevents an industry from storing more than this maximum, but it's off by default)
- how much is in transit (already in the transport chain) and the max. mount in transit. They should stop ordering fresh fish when this max. is reached
- max. consumption per month. Unfortunately this number fluctuates because of productivity factors. If the factory gets mail or workers, productivity (and thus consumption ) goes up for a while.

See the tabs for Goods chart and Production chart, they make things a little clearer.

[jimishol]

Thank you.
I believe all do not wait enough. I checked again and there is no need for extension at fishing. All have to do with low demand of markey and the 3 and half months for each transfer trip.
Take a like if you like at https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,21796.new.html#new