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Author Topic: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions  (Read 50798 times)

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Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2013, 05:52:04 PM »
Hello Mega
came from the long_goods_dock_2a.pak,shipstop2.pak,post_dock_2.pak,crate_goods_dock_2.pak the png and dat files
to?

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2013, 06:31:02 PM »
Meanwhile i made a sheetpiles wall - horizontally and vertically aligned! Maybe you can use it. Currently I am working on a sandy beach  8)




Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2013, 07:10:49 PM »
A small foretaste to the upcoming beach in a cold, wintry season ;)  We definitely need more Sun!


Beach preview (south view, left & center):


Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2013, 07:34:43 PM »
Raiser
The Beach looks very good out.
I want on the Beach!

Offline Zeno

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2013, 07:38:21 PM »
Hey, is that a shark in the beach???!!! :o

Offline VS

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2013, 07:53:49 PM »
Wow, I leave for a few weeks and this comes out of nowhere! The new docks are very good :) I would just ask you to keep all the files (or possibly store somewhere), as the potential coming of half heights could make some changes needed...

The only complaint I would have with the new crane is that its "smooth" appearance merges rather poorly with the other items :(

Huge ships would need... well, I don't know. Recoding of hte vehicles to something entirely new, spanning more than one tile in game logic, perhaps. I don't think cluttering this topic with that discussion is a good idea, though ;)

Sharks... quick, pak128 needs a hospital! :D

Offline INJMVO

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2013, 10:22:26 AM »
Here is my try on the harbor extensions. I made a few standard tiles so we can work on the details. (fences, stairs and bollards)
 
Cobblestone <1930
Harbor in the middle of the city so there will be warehouses on the tile.
goods packed in crates, barrels and sacks.
other details: cannons, cranes with a running wheel were well paid workers can lift the cargo, house carriages, missing pirates, pubs and a house for the hard working woman.
 
Industrial (brick) 1931-1980
It's the time of steam the harbors move away from the city's.
goods are still in crates, barrels and sacks but are on pallets for easier handling.
other details: steam cranes and truck's
 
modern (concrete-asphalt) 1981-2010
This is the one we use now so that we can take what we have with us.
goods can be on pallets but first containers are coming up.
 
And I'm planning to make a Container harbor extension for 2010> (like Maasvlakte 2)
With portal cranes, AGV's, containers and a bulk/oil terminal

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9cs5yivfyzwdmzp/Harbor_tiles.png

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2013, 04:18:28 PM »
Hello INJMVO
The harbor pngfile looks nice out. :thumbsup:

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2013, 04:30:08 PM »
A very interesting discussion. Many ideas as I see ! Thank you all.

Well I finished improvements of all existent harbour set.



There is sources of definitively addons as VS and greenling asked :
I don't submit compiled pak in this sources. If you want testing them before including pak128 download the special test paks in previous posts. And then there is last (bulk...) :
http://www.mosaiques44.fr/simutrans/lib/exe/fetch.php/bulk_dock_2.pak

(EDIT3 : cut links are corrected thank you greenling)

So if you're agree for these proposals, thank you per advance to Zeno, Fabio or VS to commit them in the repository.


Now I can continue project of new added harbour set. I'll try to include Raiser's sheetpiles (Thank you very much) and create new pier with concrete pavement, improved cranes and some details and accessories (container...).I mean they will have a 2x1 tiles for size.
@VS : I designed cranes like last gantry of ground platforms. I think they will be a complement in modern period of the game (after 1945...)

@Raiser : nice idea your designed beach ! It  will be a good attraction imho.

EDIT : @ INJMVO
Thank you for your proposal. Just one thing : don't forget natural slope of bank. If you do a graphic bug can appear like that :


EDIT2 : just for fun : night view of example of harbour set with ship waiting :
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 05:10:15 PM by mEGa »

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2013, 04:57:45 PM »

Offline mEGa

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Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2013, 05:21:01 PM »
Great work, those are fabulous!

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2013, 04:30:53 PM »
Hi Community,
I submit you a proposal of new_long_dock to complete the pack. It will appears since 1970 (or another date you want) and based on 3x2 tiles. It also respect half tile alignment.
I included sheet piles created by Raiser (nice aspect, isn't it ?)

For this I create new gantry crane (from existent cranes used in Rotterdam) :


What are your thoughts ?

Offline greenling

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2013, 04:47:41 PM »
Woh Mega
The first photo looks very good out.

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2013, 06:39:07 PM »
Very nice!

A couple of thoughts:

Adding a bit of texture variation to the piles might make them look less "sterile".  I look the look, though!

The train on the dock looks a bit out of place because it has no actual access to the dock area by tracks, but the concept is very nice.

Offline sdog

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2013, 03:30:48 AM »
mEGa a container dock been something sorely missing so far. Very good addition.

One question: Container ships, container stacks, why boxcars in the train? (i assume the train is an integral part of the dock.

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2013, 03:37:29 PM »
Hi, the same thoughts like sdog and mEGa - i tried to make the sheetpile a bit smaller - does this fit better?



Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2013, 07:41:24 PM »
That's very nice, the extra piles makes it look better.  Is it possible to add a bit of texture variation to them?  Just a small amount to smooth the colours out a bit and make it look less artificial.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2013, 02:56:19 PM »
I heard your last comments (thanks) and I agree with you.
so a new test with modifications :
- new Raiser's sheet piles
- a slope with track
- a cargo_container empty waiting charge




Offline sdog

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2013, 08:41:35 PM »
i'd say, the ramp is not really working as a sollution to the problem sarlock described. The train seeming out of place is something that could be fixed later on with a station extension building providing such a ramp at a better angle and perhaps something the ramp leads to.

The easiest sollution might be to have a point in the tracks, have them go at about 45 degrees towards the wall, and just paint a small tunnel entrance into the retaining wall. At another point an extension building could be drawn that just has the same type of rail tracks comming up from below.

The problem dissapears with half-height landscapes anyway. Then the ramp would look very strange.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 08:48:20 PM by sdog »

Offline INJMVO

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2013, 09:14:10 PM »
I made a change to my textures. (finally got a good way to make them)
and i made a overview of what we have so far
Sorry to say that i made it in gimp and not in game. (we don't have corner-tiles for harbors yet)


How wide do we want the harbor to be?
Its easy to go out to sea with the standard tiles but how far do we want to go on land?
As mEGa proposed some matter of transport for harbors isn't a bad idea.
In container harbors the containers get first loaded on AGV's before stored and moved on to trains, trucks or smaller ships.
And for the earlier ones you have horse carriages and small shunting locomotives on harbor track.
Its a bit of micromanagement if it isn't automated but it would be fun. (and we can always make it so that you don't need to use it, but can use it if you want that big cargo hub)
Edit: show image



« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 12:36:44 AM by INJMVO »

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2013, 12:11:13 AM »
I think we definitely need a whole concept for harbours and their extensions - for example: The beach I'm working on is planned in combination with a parking place to expand it to a real scene. At best, the parking place will be combinable with other intentions in the city or as extension for a factory.

Maybe we have to find at first a match about general pier/dock appearance (half tile/full tile), and some different textures (e.g. sheet piles, concrete, brick wall). I think we should primary work on textures and publish them here, so that everyone will work with the same basics. Then we need a concept about what type of harbours/piers/docks/extensions we want to include, and how they are combinable to give a full picture.

IMHO a full scene would look like this:

- vary of industrial piers (like existing set and mEGa's Cranes)
- a passenger pier
- a marina
- a beach
- a levee or rock-dam to be able to define a harbor area
- some extension building as station extensions on land
- ???

@ sarlock: OK, i took a look on the sheetpiles and optimized them - i hope i removed all imperfections and made them look more smooth.

@ INJMVO:  corners will be important - would you please post the dat files/sources?

What are your thoughts? We could bundle our work!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 01:36:49 AM by Raiser »

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2013, 01:29:47 AM »
Rather than train, how about trucks?  Then a ramp concept would fit much more appropriately.

Or, better yet, straddle carriers/gantry cranes for container hauling.





http://www.kalmarind.co.uk/pages/straddle-carriers.php

Then you aren't constrained by the railway and it can be more modular and more easily adapted to a dual half/full height scenario.

I'd be happy to contribute to graphics in a week when I return from vacation.  The only difficulty is that we each have our own styles when it comes to graphics and it most constrast a bit.  I'd be more inclined to use blender for modelling.

One thing I'd love to see is jetties.  They can be used for large river mouth port entrances, by docks, etc.  They add a really nice realistic touch to a harbour area.  To be done properly, though, they would have to be ploppable on ocean tiles which currently isn't possible unless it's coded as a ship depot.  You could make pre-fab lengths but in order to be truly useful it should be modular and buildable to any length desired.

EDIT: New piles look great, Raiser, much nicer effect :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 02:15:09 AM by Sarlock »

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2013, 09:31:22 AM »
i'd say, the ramp is not really working as a sollution to the problem sarlock described. The train seeming out of place is something that could be fixed later on with a station extension building providing such a ramp at a better angle and perhaps something the ramp leads to.
I'm agree it's very artificial ! I mean that last Sarlock's solution is better. I thought same idea : special trucks to carriage only containers, but we do not have to forget the old periods, because this vehicle type is recent. I thus propose simple trucks for the first periods (on 1930->1970) then these automatic vehicles from 1970.
The problem dissapears with half-height landscapes anyway. Then the ramp would look very strange.
Yes. this is why I do not make at first.
I think we definitely need a whole concept for harbours and their extensions - ...At best, the parking place will be combinable with other intentions in the city or as extension for a factory.
...Then we need a concept about what type of harbours/piers/docks/extensions we want to include, and how they are combinable to give a full picture.
YES !!! I vote for it.
I think, we can at first create some elements : textures, details or accessories as we began (your sheetpile, INJMVO's platforms, cranes...) and then decide which piece we keep to elaborate harbor set concept.

So I continue to create another view of my gantry crane and submit you sources.

Nice project really !

EDIT :
Another idea:
Why do not simulate goods trafic of harbor with showing/hiding pile of containers like animated smoke represents activity of factories ? But I don't know if coding is possible...
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 09:43:56 AM by mEGa »

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2013, 10:21:27 AM »
you should be able to animate harbours like any other building (not sure).


Is the weird looking slope on the right of the harbour part of the graphics? Or is this some kind of program bug?

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2013, 04:13:44 PM »
Is the weird looking slope on the right of the harbour part of the graphics? Or is this some kind of program bug?
No it's a graphic bug when pasting element in Gimp.

Offline INJMVO

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2013, 11:51:27 PM »
Here are the png files for the harbor tiles. i don't have made the dat files yet but i will start on them.
The tiles are sloped as mEGa suggested but the tiles with the wall at the back (Tier I) are missing a bit through this.
Is there a solution for?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iyw2khmm25hnnz/StoneHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnhkljr4s3x0p6b/IndustrialHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/izdybg6y030rmey/ModernHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/agi4ceqzmscz8fy/ContainerHarborTileSloped.png

And i played around with the sheetpile texture with some interesting results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kb7q8d9ivusa2be/SheetpileAsphaltHarborTileSloped.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ty9t2qr01c7spw/SheetpileConcreteHarborTileSloped.png


Edit: added some eye candy

« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:40:56 AM by INJMVO »

Offline mEGa

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2013, 10:29:57 AM »
Good beginning !
The tiles are sloped as mEGa suggested but the tiles with the wall at the back (Tier I) are missing a bit through this.
Is here a solution for?
Yes I had also noticed it. I had tried to play unsuccessfully with {front/back}images in dat file. So I realized long_dock on 2x3 tiles to bypass this problem. after  some searches, I just found this trick :
drawing  a triangle wall and hiding hole by leading elements when we combine every piece of set. I know it isn't a good solution. It will be disappear when we could use half height on game.
So I'm like you : I ask question too.

EDIT : Maybe continue the idea of slope in bottom to hide the bug. This one can then be to delete during version "in half height".
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:38:37 AM by mEGa »

Offline INJMVO

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2013, 09:43:42 PM »
The levees/breakwaters are a great idea Raiser.
For the materials we can use:
·         Stone 1950< (or still use for small breakwaters?)
·         Tetrapod 1950
·         Accropode 1981
·         Xbloc 2001
·         Accropode II 2004 (maybe form 2010> because of the Xbloc?)
It would be nice if they were coded like roads/walls so that they have diagonals.
Ten we can also use it for sandbanks, (coral)reefs and swamps = speed 5
But we are at the mercy of the coders for that :P.

They also make great entrances to be used as choose sign as proposed in:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6893.msg66673#msg66673
Green buoys for entrance and red for exit.
Here is a rough sketch of my thoughts:
 I won't do much more on this because I think 3D will shine here :P
since the placing of the blocs is complex for 2D



Here are the .png, .dat and .pak files of the harbor tiles for testing.
Warning: there are 12 objects in each .pak (3 straight and 9 corners)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2z6gff70nhapwdo/HarborTile.zip
Ps does someone have a better texture for the tiles as the city and industry pavement?

Offline VS

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2013, 03:41:18 PM »
I forgot to commit the new harbours... Tomorrow!

Offline Yona-TYT

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2013, 07:39:14 PM »
@INJMVO
very decorative these  levees 8) 

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2013, 11:19:02 PM »
I could try and model the levees in 3D with blender and see how they look... it shouldn't be too hard to do after a model a few different sizes/shapes of boulders and pile them up.

We can't directly place tiles on the ocean so we're restricted to having them originate from a land tile.  These are also intended to be station extensions so they will be connected to a harbour area.

Offline Raiser

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2013, 12:34:42 AM »
INJMVO, its really getting hot in here :) I like your "first" sketch of the breakwaters - i think going ahead in this direction will be the right way.  Which software do you use? Blender? Sketchup?

I tried to make a rock-dam as boundary for the beach with sketchup, but I'm not happy with the result. It looks a bit like made with modelling clay  :P




Offline INJMVO

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2013, 02:32:44 AM »
Yes I know Sarlock but I hope that one day or prince will come (a coder looking for a new project)
Who looks at the image's en the examples and thinks that it would be really cool to have corners for harbors and levees on water.
If I could code it I would do it but I only just started with python so it would take me years :P
The only thing I can "see" is that for the levees you can probably  use a part of the code for the roads (there are walls  on land already with speed = 0) but for the corners even I as the creator have no idea how to code it. (we have a part that connect stations with dim 1,1,16 but around corners???)
The coders seem to be busy with the half-height for now, which in my opinion is a super nice expansion for Simutrans.
So until they're ready to start this project I play with the parts that work, make new things and dream big for new projects. :P
 
Raiser I mostly draw in gimp but to get the shapes by modeling in Sketchup (or Microstation/Autocad sincs I'm studying to become  a civil engineer :P)
advantage is that I can easily make rough sketches and objects that require the same layout.
But for the levees you have a complex geometry that needs to be on all sides (look at pictures of breakwaters the blocks are all over the place)
In Sketchup this means bad lightning default textures and easy stacking (putting a lot of Components on top and trough each other) resulting in a clay effect.
I started some tutorials in blender (I want to know a bit of everything)  but I'm not happy with the results yet. But I see that you can make much nicer 3D models which you can stack more natural for the levee. (that's why I said that someone with 3d skills could do this better + it's easy to rotate the model to al the sides needed for a road like object)
So I can't wait to see what Sarlock and the other 'modeler's' makes for us. :P
 
So here is my next part of the set: Canal quays in the styles of the harbor tiles.
Because of the walls I needed to update the stations to dim 1,1,8 so we get a lot of playground. :p
The parts with the walls are for in city's when the canal is below street level. (.png, .dat and .pak)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bbplv89gw0ljpm8/Canalquay.zip
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:57:31 AM by INJMVO »

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Enhancement Harbor area and extensions
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2013, 04:56:47 AM »
It's pretty easy to do in blender.  Set up a sun light source overhead and tweak the environment lighting to get rid of the really nasty shadows that you get from a single light source overhead.  When I get back from vacation next week I'll work on it.  I've been doing something similar with the landscape cliffs so I already have some premade rock objects that I can easily adapt for jetties.

The key will be to use different textures for the rocks so that they all don't share the same colouration.

It's not likely that we'll be able to make these modular any time soon but we can make prefab 3 or 4 length jetties in the four directions quite easily.  You just place them on the shoreline beside your harbour tiles and you're done.

We could make a separate package of addon pieces for people who want to be more creative and have a palette of options available in a submenu.  It may not be a hard coding change to allow harbour components to be placed on water tiles.  If we find a willing coder... they're all busy with bigger projects.