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Author Topic: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server  (Read 3646 times)

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Online Freahk

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2021, 02:41:56 PM »
There it is.
The map is still in 1750, so you can start the game in cooperative map editor mode ;)
As suspected, manually placed towns won't grow, so this still needs to be fixed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qyr-CpV41pt57_UsKxuBCn7z5rzWZqq5/view?usp=sharing

Offline Matthew

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2021, 08:18:07 PM »
As suspected, manually placed towns won't grow, so this still needs to be fixed.

Do you mean 'grow with the Population Increase tool' or 'grow automatically as time progresses'? If it's the later, then someone (possibly Freddy) has a workaround, towns people built in B-B are growing.

In this context, maybe Vladki expected to place all the buildings manually anyway? I don't know.

Online Freahk

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2021, 08:59:03 PM »
Both I guess. Growing a manually placed town will only build roads and attractions.
I don't think there's a workarround. Either there is a work shortage, then new towns won't grow, or there is no work shortage, then they will grow.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2021, 09:14:49 PM »
In this context, maybe Vladki expected to place all the buildings manually anyway? I don't know.
Definitely not. I wanted to place the cities approximately on their real location, with town hall position corresponding to the historical city center, and grow them (using the tool) to 1/10 of their population in 1800 (if we can find it) or 1/100 of their current population. From then on, the growth should be driven by the quality of transport.

I also planned to put some primary industries in their real place: coal mines (Ostrava - Katovice, Prievidza, Oslavany), salt mines (Bochnia, Wieliczka), iron mines (Kremnica, Banska Bystrica, Banska Stiavnica), steel mills (Ostrava), Textile Mills (Brno), farms, forests, ... In this regard help from those who know better about industries in Austria and Hungary is welcome.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2021, 11:03:06 PM »
I also planned to put some primary industries in their real place: coal mines (Ostrava - Katovice, Prievidza, Oslavany), salt mines (Bochnia, Wieliczka), iron mines (Kremnica, Banska Bystrica, Banska Stiavnica), steel mills (Ostrava), Textile Mills (Brno), farms, forests, ... In this regard help from those who know better about industries in Austria and Hungary is welcome.

This is a good idea, but it will hit a small problem and then a bigger problem.

The small problem is that coal mines, iron mines, forests, etc. can only be built in certain regions now. And those are regions defined as the British Isles in the pak128.Britain-Ex simuconf.tab.

Since the regions are defined at pakset level, the bigger problem is that if you change the regions you are forking the pakset. (Unless the regions are set permanently when the map is created but I don't think that they can be, because regions were added after the current Bridgewater-Brunel map). If you fork the pakset, then we lose the ability to use the Nightly Updater to stay in sync with one another. I guess that it would be possible to create a Linux Bash script and a Windows batch file to work around this though.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2021, 12:15:29 AM »
Are the regions so strict that even manually placed industries have to obey regions?
EDIT: I tried, and it is really restricted. BTW is there a way to show the regions on the map?

@Freahk, thanks for the map. It looks really good. I tried growing the "ungrowable" cities ad it is still a problem. They simply do not build any houses. Even if I build some houses by hand, and then grow - it only upgrades the available houses, but does not build new ones. But the autogenerated towns grow nicely. So there must be something which makes those manually placed towns different from automatic...  I have tried creating a new town in stephenson siemens-game and it grows normally. (e.g. wettun was built by some newbie player randomly banging the keyboard and mouse).

So there must be some option that differs between stephenson-siemens and current defaults that breaks the city growth, but only for manually placed towns?

P.S. Strassdorf an der Donau = Strasshof an der Nordbahn... I didn't know that austrians had so much fun making names of their towns ;-)  They should make partnership with česká třebová, which is nicknamed "the town at the station"

Offline Ranran

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2021, 12:36:48 AM »
Obviously the current first stage city growth logic is broken.
First of all, the problem is that the city area will not expand if there are no buildings with jobs and population in the early stages. So there is no place to create a building that belongs to the city, so no building will be built. And only the road is stretched. You can see that the city is very narrow even though the roads are stretched.
Then check the demand in the city. This is either a broken calculation or no updates. Especially suspicious is Res. demand.
There may be other causes, but anyway, the breakdown of the above functions hinders the growth of the city.

EDIT:
Res. Demand is "homeless" in standard, which is often negative in other cities, while manually placed cities show positive values. And it seems to be copying Com / Ind demand in the manual placement city.
The first problem can be solved by destroying the roads and placing populated buildings within the city limit. But that doesn't fix the second problem.
There are some threads related to this issue so far. Previous experiments have shown that manual placed cities do not automatically generate anything other than roads and attractions unless the world's job shortage is resolved. It was also shown that it would never be resolved. And as the game progresses, you will definitely fall into that state.

EDIT2:
It turns out that manually placed cities do not update demands correctly.
Demands will increase with the grow city tool. On the other hand, buildings in the city never update that number.

It is strange that the two values are equal at the time of the first step.
Because the town hall has a job. Also even if you manually plant a Res building within the city limit, Res. demand will not change.
This means that the demand calculation is not done correctly in the manually placed city.

EDIT3:
Code: [Select]
if ((world_jobs * 100l) > (monthly_job_demand_global * 110l))
{
worker_shortage = true;
}
else if ((monthly_job_demand_global  * 100l) > (world_jobs * 110l))
{
job_shortage = true;
}
I suppose that the condition to set this flag is abnormal in the manual placed city (or the effect of being true).
If you remove that code (ie false) the manual placed city will grow. Then grow the manually placed city a little, then put the code back and use the grow city tool again and the city will grow correctly. This means that it is no longer considered a manually placed city.
This indicates that there is a problem in the process (which related to the code above) when manually placing the city.

We may need to ignore those flags until city have the first habitant and job in the city. Otherwise manually placed cities may only generate roads. Alternatively, it can be avoided by the order of processing.

Currently, if the world is a job shortage, the manual placed city will never grow, but the city that already exists can grow. That's strange. ???

Please move this post to the corresponding thread if necessary.
I remember posting a similar post before.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 05:12:18 AM by Ranran »

Offline Vladki

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2021, 08:33:18 AM »
Hmm, would it help to make the city bigger when created? And why manually placed city is OK (from the beginning) on stephenson siemens, but not in wien-budapest?

Offline Ranran

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2021, 08:54:39 AM »
What was observed and pointed out in another thread,
As cities grow and refurbish, the world gradually runs out of job. Because it is rare to make something like an office building that originally provides a lot of work. They especially tend to stick to industry and IND,  to provide jobs.
On the other hand, res is frequently refurbished and the population per tile is increasing steadily.
On the other hand, IND does not have a very high level. Therefore, we must expect that a factory that will satisfy employment will be created.

Maps that have grown that way, or maps that have been manually run the grow tool many times, tend to run out of job for the population.

Check "Res. Demand" in the city info dialog for each city. I think it's negative in many cities. In other words, it is full of people without work. So manually placed cities don't try to build a house. However, the city limit does not expand in unpopulated cities. This is the first problem. This creates a small city where can't build buildings. But this is not the only problem. The post above shows that resolving this does not resolve the issue.
On the other hand, cities that has already have RES buildings will continue to grow in population by "refurbishing" res buildings rather than building them. Increasingly new cities will not be able to build houses.
Anyway, when the world is flagged as full of unemployed people, it seems that they cannot build any buildings in the city. In other words, it seems that the new city has not been initialized correctly.
The situation will not improve unless the flag disappears, but as mentioned above, it is unlikely that the situation will improve even if you continue playing normally. (´・ω・`)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 09:21:33 AM by Ranran »

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2021, 09:52:32 AM »
On the other hand, cities that has already have RES buildings will continue to grow in population by "refurbishing" res buildings rather than building them. Increasingly new cities will not be able to build houses.
Especially during the 1960s-80s, this actually causes the population to decrease because residential buildings are renovated into those with a smaller population.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2021, 11:23:38 AM »
Especially during the 1960s-80s, this actually causes the population to decrease because residential buildings are renovated into those with a smaller population.
I don't think it means it's under the control of the game system. And you need to be aware that the same thing happens with industry closures and upgrades.
Industries that hire large numbers of low-workers, such as coal mines, will be less common in the new era. Similarly, mechanization saves many industries labor.
Employment can be reduced as well as the population.

EDIT:
That is why I think it is desirable to increase the number of commercial facilities such as office buildings in the new era.
However, currently the renovation does not allow to change to another district.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 11:43:54 AM by Ranran »

Offline Vladki

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2021, 11:45:59 PM »
Is there a way to dump settings from running game to a text file?

Offline prissi

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2021, 02:37:56 AM »
You can save the game in xml format. The settings are between "<settings_t>" and "</settings_t>". You can replace them then into another game. But those XML saves will be huge ...

Offline Vladki

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2021, 10:48:01 PM »
Extended has the xml save disabled... :-( Anyway comparing visually:
Wien-Budapest-Krakow   vs. Stephenson-Siemens:
Code: [Select]
bits_per_month: 24 / 22
tooltip_background_color: 29879 / 950
starting_money: 250000 / 273333
allow_buing_obsolete_vehicles: 0 / 2
just_in_time: 2 / 1
growthfactor_villages: 832 / 768
growthfactor_cities: 480 / 480
growthfactor_capitals: 120 / 240
max_city_size: 20000 / 16000
max_diversion_tiles: 25 / 200
tilting_min_radius_effect: 1000 / 375
minimum_staffing_percentage_consumer_industry: 66 / 0
minimum_staffing_percentage_full_production_producer_industry: 80 / 0
forge_cost_*: all are different
default_increase_maintenence_after_years_road: 15 / 30
default_increase_maintenence_after_years_other: 30 / 15
default_increase_maintenence_after_years_*: 30 / 30
max_alternative_destinations_visiting: 233 / 693
max_alternative_destinations_commuting: 153 / 403
min_alternative_destinations_visiting: 86 / 259
min_alternative_destinations_commuting: 152 / 402
passenger: waiting - waiting
visiting: 12 - 9600 / 8 - 5400
max_comfort_preference_percentage: 650 / 500
cost_alter_climate: 100000 / 1000
cost_multiply_remove_haus: 125 / 62
winter snowline: 15 / 0
desert: -19 / -20
tropic: -16 / -20
mediterran: -12 / 0
temperate: 0 / 0
tundra: 8 / 20
rocky: 24 / 24
I will try playing with growthfactor, max_city_size, and maybe min_staff_percentage?

Offline Vladki

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Re: Vienna-Krakow-Budapest extended Server
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2021, 09:15:46 PM »
I will try playing with growthfactor, max_city_size, and maybe min_staff_percentage?
That did not help. Further reports in: https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,19719.msg1/topicseen.html#new