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Author Topic: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.  (Read 731 times)

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Offline Vladki

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mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« on: October 23, 2020, 06:38:02 PM »
There is a lot of vehicles, that can be used quite universally. Simple open wagons or lorries can carry bulk goods, as well as long goods, or even piece goods (barrels). Now that we have mixed_load_prohibition this could be feasible to allow more cargo types (freight=) in the same vehicle.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2020, 10:18:24 AM »
There is a lot of vehicles, that can be used quite universally. Simple open wagons or lorries can carry bulk goods, as well as long goods, or even piece goods (barrels). Now that we have mixed_load_prohibition this could be feasible to allow more cargo types (freight=) in the same vehicle.

This is an interesting thought, although the same vehicle cannot have multiple types of goods (e.g., both bulk goods and piece goods), although they can have more than one of the same type (e.g. grain and coal, both bulk goods).

Offline jonbridg

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2020, 01:02:56 PM »
I like this idea, Drop-side lorries and Open railway wagons can carry practically anything. Naturally the lack of roof/tall sides would restrict the capacity, so dedicated wagons would remain the most efficient transport for large consignments.


Offline Matthew

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 01:32:18 PM »
This is an interesting thought, although the same vehicle cannot have multiple types of goods (e.g., both bulk goods and piece goods), although they can have more than one of the same type (e.g. grain and coal, both bulk goods).

This is a totally accurate description of how Simutrans works, but perhaps misses Vladki's point. I will try to annotate to indicate what I think he said:

Quote from: Vladki
There is a lot of vehicles [in real life], that can be used quite universally. Simple open wagons or lorries [in real life] can carry bulk goods, as well as long goods, or even piece goods (barrels) [at different times]. Now that we have mixed_load_prohibition this could be feasibl[ly replicated in Simutrans by] allow[ing] more cargo types (freight=) [at different times] in the same vehicle [in Simutrans].

Vladki, if I have misunderstood you, you can of course speak for yourself!  ;D

This change would not make much (any?) economic difference now,  but it might come into its own when the new consist system comes into operation. So it would be possible to recommend that any new road vehicles in Extended use something like the hulls system for ships so that they are ready to be used under the new scheme.

Offline Vladki

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2020, 03:01:36 PM »
Matthew understood exactly what I mean. Thanks for adding the notes. What I am suggesting will make economic benefits even now. Think about a train using the open wagons carrying coal in one way and loading wood for the way back. This is not possible now, and won't be possible even if using the cargo holds system from ships. It would take an insane amount of micromanagement - send train to depot, replace all of cargo holds, and send it again. Also it will disrupt the flow of cargo - there will be no wood waiting on the station, unless there is at least one train with the appropriate hold on the way.

So for the players the incentive may be - use universal wagons with lower capacity and higher load times, but use them both ways; or use specialized wagons with quick unloading, higher capacity, but with less opportunities to fill on return trip.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2020, 03:56:21 PM »
Do I understand correctly that this is intended to be a feature request for allowing multiple types of goods to use the same wagon at once? This is likely to require a fundamental rewrite of large parts of the code, as there are large and disparate areas of the code which all assume the current system, which is quite fundamental to how a lot of things work, and would probably be a very large task. It is not a priority for my own work at present.

Offline Vladki

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2020, 04:43:00 PM »
Yes it is a feature request. Although not for loading multiple types (categories) of goods _at once_ (not mixing coal and wood), but without need to rebuild in depot (whether as an upgrade or using cargo holds). So that the vehicles can e.g. deliver coal one way and wood on return trip. I agree that this is not top priority, but at least the knowledge that the assumption of single goods category is on many places is valuable.

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2020, 09:29:19 PM »
I agree with Vladki. Short-distance and small-scale freight is currently very difficult to achieve without significant micromanagement or expense.

Offline jonbridg

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2020, 11:14:13 PM »
allowing multiple types of goods to use the same wagon at once
My understanding is that the feature would allow, say, bulk goods OR long goods, but not bulk goods AND long goods, so they wouldn't be both using the wagon at once.

Offline Ranran

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2020, 02:17:43 PM »
It has multidimensional complexity. In the real world, the load capacity depends on the difference in volume and weight (and seat).
For example, if you fold a seat in a room and carry luggage instead, what does that capacity depend on? Capacity, the number of seats, has turned into a useless number.

Howing both a weight and capacity limit to obey would make a 100% load calculation somewhat more challenging.
For this reason I think this is quite complicated and difficult to implement.
Game balance and GUI clarity must also be considered.

Offline knotwork

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Re: mixed_load_prohibition and universally usable vehicles.
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2020, 01:18:07 AM »

Surely that is simply a matter of assigning a weight to passengers? Those folding seats could each provide seating for a weight of passenger(s) that corresponds in other goods to "one" unit of weight?

Even though oil is given in litres and bulk goods in what, pounds or tons or whatever, and mail in bags, is there not an overall implied unit in which one bag of mail or one unit of oil or one unit of coal all kind-of correspond?

-MarkM-