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Author Topic: Underground Trains  (Read 69110 times)

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Offline Dwachs

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2012, 08:24:21 AM »
The only thing I want to do is remove the annoying underground pavement (this is what is causing the grey gridlines). Is this possible to disable?
What do you mean?

The grid lines are taken from the pakset's grid line definition. The texture for tunnel tiles is this: http://www.simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=en_MiscDef&machine_translate_to_lang=&no_bl=y#Tunnelground
Just provide an empty graphic here.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2012, 10:14:09 AM »
I wonder whether a thought could be given to narrow gauge tube tunnels and Post Office Railway vehicles...?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2012, 04:55:23 PM »
@Dwachs:
So if I set a tunnel ground to a blank object, then the pavement won't show? That should do the trick...

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2012, 07:41:02 PM »
I hope :)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2012, 10:06:21 PM »
@Timothy

Just a quick question about your station images - the pspimages are not files I can open, so I can only get at the pngs. Do the pspimages contain layers? I would like to replace the tracks with pak128.Britain tracks and add player colours instead of the red, green and blue tiling. It's not impossible using just the pngs, but if the pspimages have layers that would be easier, if only I could open them (without buying paint shop pro). If so, is there any chance you could export them into something that GIMP could open as a layered file?

EDIT:

I've had a go at editing just the png file - here's a comparison:



So far I've added player colours, darkened the whole image and removed some of the "comic" style outlines. I'm currently debating whether to remove some or all of the black outlining at the portals, but probably not. I also don't think the tracks are massively out of place after darkening, and they do align. I'm currently thinking of leaving them as they appear on the right hand image.

I have just spotted a possible anomaly in this image: the trains depicted here are, as I understand it, the sub-surface stock from the existing Pak128.Britain; if that is so, they should not be fitting through the portals at the end of the station into the tunnels, which are barely bigger than the tube stock that they are designed to accept.

Edit: Also, might there be some merit in having a special type of elevated roadway to allow us to simulate cut and cover tunnelling (dig using the artificial slope tool, fill with the elevated roadway)? The elevated roadway could use, as its "supports" graphics of the inside of the cut away sections, as depicted in the background of the following photograph:

« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 10:18:52 PM by jamespetts »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2012, 12:49:04 PM »
If you look closely I think the surface stock is scraping the portal roof. In any case it's possibly not worth the hassle (certainly not yet) of redrawing Timothy's hand-drawn tube tunnels for the sake of a couple of pixels (although if you want to do so, I would probably use the images).

The elevated way idea for cut and cover is plausible (and indeed has been done before in the days before true underground mode was introduced). The main issue I can see is one of balancing - given the discussion in the bridges thread about the relative pricing of artificial slopes and bridges (including elevated ways), in order to make cut and cover preferable to tunnels (at least for depth 1) then tunnels would have to be very expensive indeed. What do you think of this?

The other one is one of scale - for a double track railway you need two tiles width but most city roads are just one tile (unless you artificially create double lane streets). This would limit the usefulness of cut and cover in simutrans world...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2012, 01:48:32 PM »
Rats, hadn't considered the double track issue - that does rather make things difficult. I wonder whether it'd be possible to tinker with city rules to produce double-width streets? On balancing, though, I do agree that tunnels should be very expensive indeed, as indeed they are in reality.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2012, 07:00:17 PM »
The amazing thing is that, as expensive as digging tunnels through London was, the Underground was a for-profit (and profitable!) enterprise.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2012, 09:55:06 AM »
It's probably a good idea in the long run to have a cut-and-cover elevated city road - shouldn't be too hard as all images would need the same 4-arch base with the road tile superimposed. However I don't think it's a priority (not for me at least), especially given the lack of double roads...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2012, 11:12:59 AM »
It's probably a good idea in the long run to have a cut-and-cover elevated city road - shouldn't be too hard as all images would need the same 4-arch base with the road tile superimposed. However I don't think it's a priority (not for me at least), especially given the lack of double roads...

Fair enough...

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2012, 10:21:57 PM »
OK, some actual TRAINS now...



It's 1995 Tube stock (can you tell at this scale?!?!?!) - although in game it will also double as 1996 stock as they are essentially the same for our purposes.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2012, 10:25:32 PM »
Very nice!

Offline ӔO

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2012, 11:15:28 PM »
that looks awesome.

Offline Ashley

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2012, 11:40:34 PM »
Are they 3D renders or recolours of my ones?

It's funny how when I made these the 2009/2012 stock were just concept drawings, and are now in service. :) Did anyone make the 378 sets in use on the Overground network?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2012, 12:01:08 AM »
Yes - the 378s have been in Pak128.Britain for longer than they have been in service ;-)

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2012, 07:52:13 AM »
Nice to see more progress :) Hopefully this will all be incorporated into the next release (and that into Debian) before my current mega-game reaches the point (started in 1860 at the moment, after 2 weeks of many, many hours of gameplay!)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2012, 09:10:54 AM »
It's a 3D model I knocked up yesterday afternoon (tube trains have rather simple shapes). They are slightly larger than your hand-drawn ones but I'm not 100% happy with the scale yet. I might go slightly larger still. I'm hoping once I've got the scale sorted properly the rest of the stock should be fairly rapid to adapt and render.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2012, 10:23:49 AM »
Kieron,

if you started in 1860, you're only 3 years off needing Underground trains ;-)

Hood,

the best way to check the scale is: go to the BR Mk. I file in Blender, and select the underframe. Export as Collada, making sure to export only selected. Import this into your new file in a layer not used by anything else. The BR Mk. I underframe should be 19.35m, whereas the 1995 stock cars should be 17.77m (source). So, to get the scale, calculate the length of the 1995 stock cars as a proportion of the BR Mk. 1 (17.77 / 19.35 = 0.918...), and scale your imported underframe by this figure (0.918) in the y direction. This should then be the correct length for your 1995 stock cars. When exporting, you can just disable your scale comparison underframe layer.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2012, 12:16:39 PM »
James,

You don't need a collada to do that. Append/link objects does the same thing much easier.

On scaling, it looks better if you stick to exact fractions of 16 in order to get overlaps with next vehicles looking good too.  Besides, it was more the width and height I was going to vary, more to make it look better rather than strict accuracy.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2012, 09:02:34 PM »
For some reason part of my post went missing... Started in 1750, now in 1860. Although I had to cheat and start using underground railways in about 1840... :p But proper underground stock won't be needed until 1890 or :)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2012, 10:28:34 PM »
The Hood,

hmm - I didn't know about this append/link thing - can you tell me more? But I am not sure how something other than the correct scale will look better than something with the correct scale - can you give some example, perhaps?

Kieron,

if by "proper" you mean deep level, then yes ;-)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2012, 10:11:33 PM »
For some reason part of my post went missing... Started in 1750, now in 1860. Although I had to cheat and start using underground railways in about 1840... :p But proper underground stock won't be needed until 1890 or :)

Better get a move on then - I'm working backwards in the timeline...

The Hood,

hmm - I didn't know about this append/link thing - can you tell me more? But I am not sure how something other than the correct scale will look better than something with the correct scale - can you give some example, perhaps?

File -> Append/Link -> select the file and then object you want. That's all there is to it...

In terms of scaling, the height and width are already larger than they should be for vehicle length so the sprites aren't too small but the vehicles have a sensible length for a tile. I discovered this on my first contribution, the GWR King, which I drew to scale and then had to compress along its length to fit with Kieron's stuff. That's all I've done with the tube stock, and I prefer my latest results.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2012, 01:06:21 PM »
Here's the 1992 stock. I've drawn LUL and NSE (originally used on Waterloo & City line) liveries so experimental can take advantage of these. Only the LUL version will be in standard but I'll put the png on SVN in any case.


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2012, 01:07:27 PM »
Lovely!

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2012, 02:11:51 PM »
And the new 2009 stock. It's great how tube trains are so similar it barely takes any time to adapt a model and create a different train!


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2012, 02:20:22 PM »
I do love that aspect of things, too. Did you ever wonder why I produced so many LBSCR tank locomotives...? ;-)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2012, 02:41:02 PM »
And the 1983 stock. I make that less than half an hour for a whole train!


Offline AP

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2012, 03:01:44 PM »
Looking good. What's the position of pak-gb and player-colour liveries? My closest tube trains are on the Isle of Wight, where I recall at least one set being painted bright blue with dinosaurs on it...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2012, 03:19:07 PM »
Those are the 1938 stock trains (the oldest trains running in regular service in the UK by some considerable margin!), which I think are now running in a heritage style livery similar to their original London Transport red, but were in Network South-East livery (and indeed, the "dinosaur" livery) for a while, too.

Like the 1983 stock, too!

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2012, 05:54:02 PM »
1973 stock next, in both original and current refurbished livery


Offline ӔO

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2012, 06:12:13 PM »
wow, you are on fire today.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2012, 06:55:09 PM »
Splendid!

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2012, 12:41:15 AM »
Excellent :)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2012, 12:52:42 PM »
Kieron,

while you're here - you wouldn't mind uploading your Metropolitan locomotive/carriage and District unit .blends, would you, so that I can adapt them to make some earlier Metropolitan vehicles?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2012, 08:43:06 PM »
Next up: 1967 stock, again in original and refurbished forms: