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Author Topic: Metro - as tram or train?  (Read 44758 times)

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Offline stevenlim84

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2010, 11:15:18 AM »
I support Metro as train. It is because metro usually means the train with its own way(maybe tunnel, separate track like ordinary railways or above grounds) and travel inside city whereas trams usually means they share the road with others.

I think that it is better to have high capacity train station for metros. The current capacity of train stations are not enough for busy metro operations.

Trams should be similar to light rail (also the price). The only difference is that light rail do not share the road with cars while trams shares. Simutrans only need to design the track that will be affected by surrounding traffic for tram is enough (the present design is for light rail).

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2010, 11:18:54 AM »
In English, Metro is a different thing than tram? I put them in one category, since I was used to think that Metro is just another word for tram. But I'm a bit confused with all the types of light rail/tram/metro/narrow gauge that are in use and distinguished by people.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2010, 11:44:02 AM »
In english "metro" usually refers to suburban light rail - e.g. London Underground, Glasgow Subway, and the Tyne & Wear Metro in the UK.  None of these have street running, and two share infrastructure with conventional heavy rail in places.  This is completely different to "tram" which nearly always refers to systems which include on-street running at some point on their system.  In Britain there is nowhere a tram system shares track with the heavy rail network (although there are a few proposals).  "Metro" is also used to refer to services on the conventional heavy rail network which are short-distance commuter services (e.g. all station stopping services from Central London termini to the outer suburbs).

The thing is though, "metro" and "tram" are just words to describe, and the reality of transport around the world is that there is quite a continuum of things from heavy rail commuter trains which are part of the main railway network and completely specialist light rail/tram systems.  Wherever you draw the boundary, there will be some things which don't fit.  The good thing about simutrans though is that trams and trains can share infrastructure, so whatever simutrans "calls" them, the mechanics of the game still allow the full range of options.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2010, 11:54:20 AM »
here in north america we refer to "trams" as "streetcars"
metro as either: subway, light rail, rapid transit or elevated rail.

one key factor with metro, here, is that there's 100% grade separation, so there are no crossings at all.
Streetcars are always running at grade and share traffic with the cars. There are only a few dedicated lanes for streetcar only where there is room.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2010, 12:17:58 PM »
Just to confound the issue:

Chicago's Yellow Line ("Skokie Swift") is a metro with numerous grade crossings.
Phoenix's METRO streetcars are entirely grade-separated.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2010, 12:35:13 PM »
hmm, seems I need to travel more :)

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2010, 12:38:09 PM »
In english "metro" usually refers to suburban light rail - e.g. London Underground, Glasgow Subway, and the Tyne & Wear Metro in the UK.  None of these have street running, and two share infrastructure with conventional heavy rail in places.  This is completely different to "tram" which nearly always refers to systems which include on-street running at some point on their system.  In Britain there is nowhere a tram system shares track with the heavy rail network (although there are a few proposals).  "Metro" is also used to refer to services on the conventional heavy rail network which are short-distance commuter services

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Also I now know better how to translate from and to English.

In this case it seems more logical to have metro treated as train, which is what the majority already suggested.

Offline VS

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2010, 03:32:54 PM »
*facelpalm*

If anyone actually read the poll question, they would see: metro (subway, underground). I hoped that was clear enough. Should I have written u-bahn? Nobody would have read it anyway... For what it's worth, I used that word because:
Quote
A Metro is a rapid transit rail system, also known as a subway or underground
Is that totally wrong?

Now I need a poll to show me what is "metro" ;D
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 03:37:37 PM by VS »

Offline Spike

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2010, 03:36:13 PM »
Eh, U-Bahn sounds much more like tram to me, even though The Hood just convinced me that metro are train-like vehicles ???

I guess, in addition to the real multitude of vehicles and names there also come different naming schemes in different countries which make translation really tricky :-[

Offline VS

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2010, 04:02:52 PM »
Well, now we know there was a hitch ;) After all, I don't know if my language references weren't misleading. Well, I enabled vote changing, so you can change your mind :)

That said, I only wanted to sample what people think. Regardless, simu-technicalities suggest grouping trams as a better alternative. Actually the not-so-decisive outcome tells me that I can't please everyone anyway...

PS: I'm tempted by the dark force to go with trams and stop caring about this thread :P If you don't get the reference, read Igor's signature.

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2010, 09:01:29 PM »
isn't the signaling the major difference between tram and train?

there's on techincal reason against puting the metros in the tram section: i expect quite a lot of players will just run metro train sets on street level in the tram role.

for me it's always psychologicaly difficult not to use the most efficient method just because it is not realistic, if there are no constraints in game mechanics. (it's almost the same psychological barrier that prevents one from buying overpriced things in a supermarket)

there's another advantage of not putting it into 'train' category, you can get rid of the third rail electrification there, and move it also to light rail.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2010, 09:12:43 PM »
Quote
there's another advantage of not putting it into 'train' category, you can get rid of the third rail electrification there, and move it also to light rail.
Certainly in the UK there's trains which travel for 70 miles and at speeds up to 100mph which use 3rd rail. They definitely don't fall into metro let alone tram or light rail category...

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2010, 09:15:32 PM »
i think i have idea - the trams category should be renamed to Light rail/Metro - since some places have Metro type running on tramway - (metrolink is one of them but normally metros can run either on tramway or on own tracks)

Offline gauthier

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2010, 09:46:22 PM »
In ST trains can drive on tramways and trams on track, don't they ?

I think metro is closer from train than trams, a metro convoy is longer than an average tram one.

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2010, 12:47:12 PM »
In ST trains can drive on tramways and trams on track, don't they ?

I think metro is closer from train than trams, a metro convoy is longer than an average tram one.

yep the heavyweight tram track in ST is for that use which alllows trains go on street running

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2010, 11:04:37 PM »
isn't the signaling the major difference between tram and train?
Yes, but that's in the *real* world.

In Simutrans, trams and trains can use each others tracks, and both can stop at train stations.  The key difference is that trams can stop at bus stops and trains can't.

When you think about it that way it becomes simple: metro vehicles can't stop at bus stops, they need full-scale platforms, so they go in the train category.

If you have a "light metro" vehicle which can run in streetcar mode, then go ahead and make it a tram.  (Subway-surface lines in Philadelphia, Green Line in Boston).  If you have a vehicle which normally runs on fully segregated track (grade *crossings* OK, but not running down the middle of the street), make it a train.

As a really clear example, Boston's Metro system has the Green Line, which has streetcar running and then dives into a subway; it also has the Orange, Blue, and Red lines, which have no street running, and which used to connect with freight train lines.  The Orange/Blue/Red line metro vehicles belong in a *train* depot, the Green Line vehicles belong in a *tram* depot.  Get it right for the specific vehicle you're modelling.

(edit)
In Simutrans I already build both "tram subways" and "rail subways".  I usually start with tram lines, then build a "tram subway" for the densest part of the route, then later I sometimes upgrade it to a "rail subway" and separate it from the tram lines.  This is nicely realistic as it models the history of many cities!

So again there are very good reasons to have some "pre-metro" vehicles (the ones which could run on streets as streetcars) in the tram category, and others (which couldn't) in the train category.

(edit again)

The ones which can't run on the street are generally bigger, wider, longer, and faster, so if you're making up vehicles which aren't based on real life, use that as a rule of thumb: street running trams generally have no more than four cars carrying no more than about 100 people each, while full-scale metro trains can have 12 cars or more carrying many more people.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 11:11:57 PM by neroden »

Offline werl

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2010, 03:02:22 AM »
I personally think it all depends on the specific vehicle. I think that They should be set as trams, so they can stop at appropriately fitted bus stops. I prefer them because they can be almost invisible and not clutter up the streets.

Offline AP

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2010, 08:06:22 AM »
In Simutrans, trams and trains can use each others tracks, and both can stop at train stations.  The key difference is that trams can stop at bus stops and trains can't.

Are you sure this is true in-game? I seem to recall using trains as trams to move mail on a tram network, and the train most definitely was calling successfully at the bus stops and mail boxes.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2010, 08:43:26 AM »
There is nothing to stop a train calling at a tram/bus stop AFAIK, as long as it is enabled for the correct goods type.  I think the difference in game between "tram" and "train" is very minimal (as they can both run on each other's tracks) and is just a way of splitting into two menu bars, two depots, and two speedbonus categories.

Offline gauthier

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2010, 10:51:59 AM »
tram is nothing but a bus on a track.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2010, 03:49:46 PM »
just a way of splitting into two menu bars, two depots, and two speedbonus categories.

this would push for "urban/suburban rail service" (tram+metro) and "medium/long range railways" (train)

Offline gauthier

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2010, 04:00:26 PM »
I find the current system good :/

Offline Fuzzy Peach

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2010, 12:29:16 AM »
I think that they're trains not trams.

1) They're longer
2) They hold more people
3) They go faster
4) They need full-scale platforms to load and unload passengers
5) They usually run underground or on a higher level than roads

If a separate category were to be made for Metros then that would work well. I know that I've sometimes had Metros running into Train stations to get better connections, but I've never used them in Tram stations.

Offline rsdworker

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2010, 01:02:38 AM »
I think that they're trains not trams.

1) They're longer
2) They hold more people
3) They go faster
4) They need full-scale platforms to load and unload passengers
5) They usually run underground or on a higher level than roads

If a separate category were to be made for Metros then that would work well. I know that I've sometimes had Metros running into Train stations to get better connections, but I've never used them in Tram stations.

well one thing that differs from metro and tram is the stations height - not the length - in metrolink which is tramway but has high level and the trams can be 4 tiles long if its coupled together with other tram - if single tram - two units together would be 2 tilles long
but at sheffield tramway - there low floor platforms so the trams are 2 tiles long but usually couple some trams form for football or event express because only two stations have long platforms (sheffiield station and arena station)
btw in my recent visit to bilao - there metro trains - 4 units in one train so they adding 5th one soon

Offline Fuzzy Peach

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2010, 03:09:34 AM »
I know that. That's what i mean'y by full scale.

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2010, 12:13:25 AM »
Are you sure this is true in-game? I seem to recall using trains as trams to move mail on a tram network, and the train most definitely was calling successfully at the bus stops and mail boxes.

Wow.  I specifically had that fail to work, but it may have been on an older version.... it could have changed.  I've been able to build railway station type tramstops on top of bus stops on the road lately, which used to be impossible too.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2010, 08:50:25 AM »
This may not a problem for you, but you can't make tram depots in underground.

I don't build in underground any depots - because I have not ever seen underground depot. All depots of metro in Czech republic are on surface - regardless of most stations are, of course, in underground. Only few stations of Prague's metro are on surface.

And because I use metro also for transportation of post (when I play with transportation of post), I have to use ordinary trains.

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2010, 05:07:18 PM »
I don't build in underground any depots - because I have not ever seen underground depot. All depots of metro in Czech republic are on surface - regardless of most stations are, of course, in underground. Only few stations of Prague's metro are on surface.
Underground depots are rare, but there are some.  The ones I can think of offhand:
- the Waterloo & City line in the London Underground
- the yards for Metro-North surrounding Grand Central Station, underneath prime NYC real estate

Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2010, 10:45:10 PM »
I was in Prague a few days ago and the metro/U-bahn/subway there looks nothing like the trains running to Brno, Vienna, Munich, etc.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2010, 06:02:10 AM »
Yes. Some (older) ones have been made in Russia and recently reconstructed and some (newer) ones were made in Czech republic. But subway was not built in Brno. There is only tram, bus and trolleybus.

Different gauge of metro-track and train-track (as it is in the Czech republic)

Metro has narrower gauge than trains.

I, of course, think that subways in other countries may have different gauge (also the same as ordinary trains).

Offline nitromefan

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2010, 04:15:25 AM »
I think it should be rail because metro in Australian English means underground rail

Offline nitromefan

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2010, 04:36:51 AM »
Most of the deports in the London metro are underground although there are a few above ground.

Offline neroden

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2010, 05:59:45 PM »
Most of the deports in the London metro are underground although there are a few above ground.

Most of the maintenance depots are actually above ground.

Quote
Depots:

The main depots on each Underground Line are:

Bakerloo                        Stonebridge Park
Central                         West Ruislip/Hainault
District [1]                    Ealing Common/Upminster
East London                     New Cross
Hammersmith & City and Circle   Hammersmith
Jubilee                         Stratford Market
Metropolitan                    Neasden
Northern                        Golders Green/Morden
Piccadilly                      Northfields/Cockfosters
Victoria                        Northumberland Park
Waterloo & City                 Waterloo

Except for Waterloo, I believe all of these are above ground.  It's hard to dig out enough underground space for a maintenance depot -- it takes much more space than a station (something Simutrans does *not* model accurately).

Offline Caspercom

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2010, 11:41:03 AM »
I voted train mainly because of reasons already explained.

In Amsterdam, a large part of the subway/lightrail network is above the ground. (It's a bit confusing in this case, as the lightrail system is called sneltram (snel means fast) and it uses the same tracks as the metro does.) A big part of the rail lays even with the train tracks. Picture of station Amsterdam Holendrecht:


The left 2 tracks are for the train, the picture has been taken from the metro platform. As you can see, they have a lot in common.

At station Duivendrecht, the metro tracks are positioned in the middle, and the train tracks are located one at each outer part of the station:

At this station, the platforms are shared between metro and train, one at each side.

Offline Bruno Philipe

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2010, 01:16:41 AM »
The only important difference I see between a commuter train and the metros are the doors, which usually are small and on the borders of the car in trains and large and on the middle in metros. They should be placed with trains. Trams are usually small and slow, for riding with cars on roads, like a bus. Metros are different.