Author Topic: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?  (Read 14322 times)

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Claudius

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Was the electrification for the Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped during one of the recent updates? No power is delivered to these factories anymore and in the production/boost tab the "Electricity" buttons are missing.

Both had power supplied to them successfully before. Since my recent updates it doesn't work anymore...

Thanks,
Claudius

Offline VS

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 05:44:43 PM »
Yes, markets and agricultural sources don't use electricity at all (as a general rule). This has been enabled only recently.

You can still boost mines and heavy industry...

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 06:15:54 PM »
Thanks. Good to know.

Claudius

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 08:46:09 PM »
Vs
the removing of Electrification for Shopping Center it a bad idea.
I work on some week-end on a market and there it becomes apparent immediately if no stream is there.
With stream it is sold more.
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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 09:10:43 PM »
I work on some week-end on a market and there it becomes apparent immediately if no stream is there.
With stream it is sold more.

If you take it this way, then without electricity you won't sell anything - and it would be the same for most other industries - no electricity, no production. But I do not think it should be this way in simutrans.

I would like to have the production (or consumption) of markets to be a function of the population of the city where the market is located.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 09:27:27 PM »
Honestly this time I agree with greenling as consumers in standard are the few electrical users in cities and I believe cities should be electrified anyway. With agriculture instead I agree suppressing electrification.

Offline grampybear

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 10:28:49 PM »
What about the sand quarry, stone quarry and iron ore mine, they increase output by 3 or 4 times by adding electricity. How does that work?

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2012, 05:47:20 AM »
It's a game. Certainly let us consider reality to a large degree, but ultimately also on things like balancing and such as well.

My reply is not directed at anyone, by the way...

Offline el_slapper

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2012, 09:35:43 AM »
I definitively agree with farm unelectrification. Ideally, adding some refined petrol would increase productivity, but I guess it would need a big amount of work.

For supermarkets, I'm divided. I like the new setup, as you can't artificially raise demand just by setting up an electric line. You have to to it the hard way, by clever passenger transportation. That's a definitive plus. At the same time, those babies really need electricity in real life.....

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 12:28:05 PM »
For supermarkets, I'm divided. I like the new setup, as you can't artificially raise demand just by setting up an electric line. You have to to it the hard way, by clever passenger transportation. That's a definitive plus. At the same time, those babies really need electricity in real life.....

Well, the demand could be set artificially low, so that you need to electrify them to have reasonable demand... Or the effect of electrification is rather low (no more than a 5 to 10% raise).



Mines, quarries and oilfields instead should probably be unelectrified too, IMHO.

Offline rfg123

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 04:28:47 PM »
Electricity can boost the efficiency of supermarkets by allowing them to be open at night or stock goods that should be refrigerated. This is a way that electricity can boost "output" of those facilities without necessarily increasing demand from consumers... An increase of 10-20% would be more reasonable versus doubling output or no increase at all.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 04:45:36 PM »
Does a supermarket need more electricity than a mine? Machinery versus lightbulbs... ;)

The current values are "balanced" (not really tested) for increased transport demand. The groups were, at least for electricity, based on rough understanding of how much power the factories might use.


What about the sand quarry, stone quarry and iron ore mine, they increase output by 3 or 4 times by adding electricity. How does that work?
Is that a suggestion, or question? There the boost should be 80%. If not, it's a bug.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 05:42:50 PM »
Does a supermarket need more electricity than a mine? Machinery versus lightbulbs... ;)

AFAIK, many machineries are diesel-powered or use diesel-powered electric generators (plus explosives where needed).

OTOH supermarkets need a lot of electricity for refrigerators, etc...

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 10:17:54 PM »
That about refrigerators is actually a good point... As to mining, I'd love to hear from an actual miner :D Water immediately comes to mind as another pipeable resource required by industry.

However: What would be the new values? There has to be more thought put into a balanced game that than just reality arguments... Not that the present state is great, but should be playable (feedback?)

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 10:53:15 PM »
As far as I know, mines, both subsurface and open pit types, just use diesel machinery or diesel generators. Possibly because it doesn't make financial sense drawing a power line to the mine, because there is little in the way of permanent fixtures that require electricity.


In game, is the current boost 100% for everything that gets power? I think somewhere around 20 to 60% boost for the various industries is a more reasonable range.
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Offline sdog

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2012, 12:37:28 AM »
the major consumer in mines are the pumps, preventing the mine from drowning. Those are usually electric, if it is possible to do so.

limestone quarries for cement industry often have massive breakers, that are also predominantly electric, to allow sustained or night operation.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2012, 12:23:16 AM »
Supermarkets have to have electricity to even open their doors let alone run the lights fridges meat slicers etc. Removing electricity from Supermarkets is silly. How do tree loggers trim the logs to transportable size? Electrically driven band saws. I really don't know why you have to fiddle with things that are working just fine. You would be lucky to find any industry these days that does not have a use for electricity. Where are you guys living??
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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2012, 12:42:40 AM »
Using real-world logic to argue what should be done in a half-simulation—half-game can be helpful, but it's not the whole story by a long shot.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2012, 02:16:09 AM »
Yes but! What I'm saying is,
 Why fix something that wasn't broken. The electricity was always there, well since it was introduced into the game, and it worked fine, Why now stop it from being used by Tree Plantations, Supermarkets, etc. That's not 'Real World Logic'. That's, where is the logic in removing something that worked and is, by any logic, used in both of the areas I mentioned. Why would Simutrans not apply 'Real World Logic' to a real world simulations game. What's so different about Tree Plantations etc and Iron Ore Mines? Are they not real world also? If they are then the same logic should apply to Tree Plantations.
You can't have one logic for one and a different logic for another it doesn't make sense.
 
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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2012, 05:53:56 AM »
I'm with Colin on this have to say!

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 07:15:18 AM »
The thing is: the game needs to have a consistent behavior. That is necessary so that the player can learn just by playing, as smoothly as possible. We can use the "real world" logic because that's the most used way for the player to guess how the game works and its rules. But, this is a game, and not all players have knowledge about logistics. Then, the player would use the following logic: "If a feature works for a thing, then other similar things should work in the same way".

For example: if the player discovers (by reading the dialog boxes or just by trying the tools) that a factory can accept electricity, then the player would assume the other factories could accept electricity too. In the Simutrans environment, supermarkets, iron mines, refineries, chemical plants et al are factories: they all fit in the same object category, they have same behavior, same aspect, same GUI and so on. If a factory can accept electricity but other factories can not, this would be another thing the player would need to learn. Then the next step: the player will need to learn which factories can accept electricity... Well, we know the rest of this story.

Then, I suggest:

1) all factories should accept electricity. Period.

2) if not all factories accept electricity, the factory dialog box needs to show it clearly. These dialogs already show player which products a factory need to work.

3) if no factory accepts electricity anymore, the electricity could be used to electrify overhead lines, which makes sense for me, but it would be an extra step for the player to learn how to make an electrified track (and some players already have troubles to figure out that their electric locos need overhead lines on the tracks).

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2012, 08:16:46 AM »
1) GUI issues. After some thinking, I'm with Igor - the current window hides too much data. You can set both an amount and how much it helps for each of the three. All of this needs to be communicated clearly.

2) Sensible new values. Please suggest something more exact than just "supermarket needs power", and I'll change the numbers.

3) The solution where everything accepts electricity feels wrong to me, but if an overwhelming majority of players agrees on this, let's do it :)

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2012, 08:37:54 AM »
I think it's more sensible to just have 50% boost in production and consumption for all industries when electrified. Then it is just a matter of giving a sensible electricity consumption value to each of the industries that would represent "50% boost".

say, something like 10MW for farms, and 100MW for factories.
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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2012, 09:57:44 AM »
Instead I would not stick to 50% boost, but I would use a variable boost from 25% to 100%

Agricolture and mines could have 25%,
consumers 50%
manifacturing plants 75%
heavy industried (e.g. steel mill) 100%

Also power consumption would vary as AEO suggested.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2012, 12:31:44 PM »
I agree that all industries should gain a significant boost from electricity. I'd prefer this to be a set value (2x made things quite simple) but failing that a range of at least 1.25, to maybe 2 or even more would be reasonable.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2012, 01:06:16 PM »
I would like this boost not to be fixed. There would be a boost for every factory (so delivering power to any factory would be meaningful and newbie-friendly), but experienced players would have to decide which factory is better electrified, adding one more challenge.
1.25 to 2.50 could be great. 2.50 would be for few factories, for which electrification would indeed be very rewarding.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2012, 03:01:51 PM »
IMHO, agriculture should stay at zero. IRL it's not much anyways, plus it elegantly solves the problem of "not being able to put a transformer there because there are too much fields".

For the rest, Im with Fabio.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2012, 07:22:52 PM »
What I don't understand is, Once electricity was introduced into the game all factories were able to be connected, Only cities were exempt, except in EXP. If they were able to be connected then, why not now? What has changed? It's a given that factories need power, buildings need power, every **** thing needs power, why would you make Simutrans different than real life? By all means make the output/usage different for different factories/supermarkets/dairies/etc. In reality if a factory doesn't have power it can't operate, that makes Simutrans an anomaly because it's factories do, Daft ain't it?
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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2012, 07:43:17 PM »
It's true that in real world almost every industry needs electricity. But farms can do without. They did for centuries. Electricity can save them some time, but it won't increase the amount of crops harvested. Forest can cope just with gasoline powered chainsaw, and diesel powered machinery, or even with handsaw and horses... So i think that some industries should have minimum (a few percent) or zero boost from electricity, while others (e.g. Car assembly plant) should have big boost with electricity (100-1000 %) and minimum production without. But on the other hand this would make it impossible to play without electricity at all. And I think building the power grid should be completely optional in the game. Anyway if the boost gained by electricity is not the same for all factories, it should be displayed in factory info box.

What I would consider nice option, but I'm not sure if it is possible, is, that production boost could be gained not only by providing factory with electricity. Grain and Corn farms could increase production if provided with fertilizer, Cattle or Chicken farms would need corn. In older times, many factories used steam engine and transmissions to run machinery, so coal could be used in many factories instead of electricity. Or glass mill, which requires coal only for heating the sand, so electricity could reduce the need for coal. But this is just my ideas, maybe for simutrans experimental.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2012, 10:03:39 PM »
It's true that in real world almost every industry needs electricity. But farms can do without. They did for centuries.
 
 But! Simutrans is a modern game with the latest airplanes, trains, boats, etc. It survived the dark ages of the mid to late ninety's and has evolved as a modern simulation game. Not many farms today, in civilised countries, run without power for one thing or another. Dairy Farms don't milk by hand any more, well, maybe outer Mongolia. If a player wants to run Simutrans like the dark ages then he/she doesn't have to use the electricity, don't know how they would go with the city's though, they are, for the most part, very modern.
Maybe a split, Simutrans pre 1890. ;D
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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2012, 11:38:58 PM »
On the other hand, in standard Simutrans we deliver power to factories but not to cities and households. And, mind, most of them light up at night! How do they manage to?
Most electrical companies have two distinct businesses: retail and industrial. Imho Simutrans standard simulates the industrial power distribution, rather than retail.
All farms use electricity, just like all households in any developed country, but mostly they just have normal retail contracts. Their power consumption is anyway marginal compared to that of other industries.
Thus, in a way, either we provide all buildings, households, auctions and factories with power, either we assume that only industrial power distribution is covered by the simulation and all the other power distribution is here out of scope.

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 10:31:38 AM »
The real world logic starts to fail a little, when we keep one thing in mind: electricty is only a boost in simutrans. All factories work perfectly well without it. From farms to computer plants. So all arguments about "in the real world this and that needs electricity" don't really work, because in Simutrans no factory needs it at all. Never has - and probably never will. It is only a boost, a game mechanic (allowing the player, if he does A, to get reward B) after all.

For me, personally, it always felt a little weird to supply some grain field with a power line and bang: its production rate was doubled. Variable boosts from +0 to +100% (or maybe even more - if technically possible. Those could have a lower base rate of production with such a high boost - in a way simulating industries that need lots of electricity in the real world to function at all - without making it as hard in the game, because they will still work without, but much worse) sound quite reasonable for me, depending on the type of industry - if the GUI of each factory provides the player with this information in a clear manner. I haven't checked lately, but I remember these windows to be so cryptic that new players (and quite a few old players) were not able to figure out what all these percentage values meant. Ok, I know, there's always the help function, but I think it couldn't hurt to have the information itself a little easier to understand in the first place. But for all this, the whole production balancing would need to be reworked (actually, I always felt it needed to be ;)).

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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2012, 01:22:09 PM »
I hesitate somewhat before posting, because I am not sure about my position...

I think there should be freedom and production for each industry should be A + B e, being e the electricity you provide to the industry.  A a B whatever depending on the pak developer and e, also whatever, but with a maximum value.

My point of view is that this can give richness to the game.  For instance, if you come to know that boost production for a wheat field is low, you don't invest in an electricity line to a zone of the map with mainly wheat fields and invest in another one with heavier industries...  That is richness in game playing.  If the boost is the same, this cannot be done...  If you think that this is complication, so is the high number of different industries, with different products and different prices...

In pak128.Britain, there are final consumer industries like butchers', fishmongers', etc.  I can think of another one: "City transformer".  It consumes electricity and produces nothing.


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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2012, 05:03:27 AM »
My final words on Electrification.

After all the discussions have finished, all I want is the option to use, or not to use, ELECTRICITY, at my discretion.  Please put the option back in the game. I find it rather arrogant that this option was removed without any discussion. It doesn't matter if electricity in the game is not liked by some. Once it was implemented, the option should be there, after all it doesn't slow the game down, it doesn't detract from the game, in fact, it can enhance the game if used properly.
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Re: Electrification for Shopping Center and Tree Plantation dropped?
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2012, 06:23:50 PM »
Just a note by a user:

The new system is great, thanks for being one of the first paksets to implement the new feature :)
I also very much agree with the idea that factories in towns rely on people and post and instead of electricity for boosts. I think overall the ammount of boosting is well balanced and so is the distribution among pax, post and power.