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Author Topic: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?  (Read 4100 times)

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Offline dustNbone

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0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« on: September 07, 2012, 12:21:24 AM »
I've just started an game at 1850, and after digging a long (expensive) tunnel, discovered that I can't build platforms underground now.  Is this intentional or is there just no underground platforms available so early now?  Cutting is kind of destructive in a city centre, would prefer to avoid it.  Other than that, Ive noticed several balancing improvements so far, thanks for your work!

Dustin

Offline Jaridan

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 12:32:18 AM »
as of now, (as far as i know and have seen) there are no "extra" underground stations, you just build the ones, you would build normally atop, just underground on your underground road/railway/waterway

Offline dustNbone

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 01:13:17 AM »
That is how it worked before 0.8.4 for me, but now I am given a message box to the effect of that item not being buildable in underground mode.  It's new behavior to me at least, some kind of new constraint?

Offline ӔO

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2012, 01:41:32 AM »
yup, it's a new constraint. I don't know if the new underground platforms are in yet, but it's to prevent use of overground platforms underground. It's a bit odd looking at a roofed underground platform.

since when was 0.8.4 out? ;)

Offline dustNbone

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 02:21:25 AM »
It's not out, but there is a devel build here  http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=10144.0  which is what I'm running.  Maybe make the basic wooden platform (no roof, no capacity) buildable underground?

Offline kierongreen

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 03:52:31 AM »
Suspect you'll have to wait until 1863...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 09:56:23 PM »
In the latest -devel builds, there is a requirement for specially designated underground platforms to simulate the facts: (1) that underground stations cost vastly more than overground stations to build; and (2) that there was a time before underground stations were invented. There are some lovely underground station graphics in the pakset now, which implement this feature.

Their introduction date is 1890, not 1863: this is based on the date of the first deep level Underground line in London (the City and South London Railway). Although there had been earlier underground railways in London (the first being the Metropolitan Railway, built in 1863), these early railways had used the cut and cover method and were not suitable for use in the central, most densely populated parts of London. To simulate this, the stations for underground railways have to be built in cuttings until the invention of bored rather than cut underground railways in 1890. The best type of cutting to use for these purposes is the artificial slope (which can be up to 2 tiles deep), as this not only looks more realistic, but also avoids the need to use banks, which take up too much space in inner cities.

The same principle applies to signals: special, more expensive underground signals are required. There are currently only limited and temporary special graphics for these (the earlier signals will need their own graphics in time: colour light signals in 1863 do not look right), but are available from 1863.

Offline AP

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 06:59:46 PM »
Do we have elevated roadways available, to allow the "cover" portion of "cut-and-cover"? I haven't seen them in-game... Otherwise it would seem to mean devoting large strips of city to railway instead of road (or lots of demolition).  If not, maybe it should be prioritised?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 12:10:15 PM »
We don't have elevated roadways yet, although I think that they're in the Standard to do list somewhere.

Offline ӔO

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 01:58:44 PM »
I did make a model for cut and cover.

It only needs to be rendered in the proper size, then painted on top with roads.

ah, okay, it turned out to be model(s). plural. http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9081.0
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 02:11:08 PM by ӔO »

Offline merry

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2012, 08:41:51 AM »
hmm.
This once more brings up the need for the 'cover' part of cut-and-cover, as I've raised a few times before.
If you look at eg London's Metropolitan (or other cut & cover railways), it's not just streets, but also city buildings that are placed on top of cut & cover railways.
For this to work (and therefore meet Experimental's aim of being 'realistic', there does appear to be a need for 'elevated ground' that allows buildings to develop normally on top of 'covered' rail. It might be that, as with the real-world railway companies, we can only build company-owned buildings on top of our cover, but these would be let to earn revenue and give commercial or residential space (ie have mail or passenger demand/destination capability). Mind you that was not always the case...the commercial relationships involved can be complex, and change over time (eg company later sells the buildings ).
Yes, unfortunately a code change (extension?) seems necessary, if the (probably desirable) aim of James change to underground station behaviour is to be met without compromising gameplay or realism.
TTFN,
Merry.

Offline Bear789

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2012, 09:03:14 AM »
What about a workaround? A tunnel that's labelled as cut and cover and can only be built on the first underground layer. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems less problematic than any other solution, since above it there's normal ground.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2012, 05:20:27 PM »
Elevated ground would be an interesting innovation, and would assist, but I should point out that many of the early stations on the original Metropolitan line were not fully cut and cover at all: Farringdon, Barbican, Paddington, Edgware Road, the original King's Cross, Liverpool Street and probably others were all at least partly in the open. Some of them have been covered over later (a Metropolitan District railway example that has been covered over recently is Gloucester Road, which was open as recently as the 1990s). Elevated grounds would be a very large change to current behaviour, and require a great deal of work; but until that is possible, I don't think that having to have stations for underground railways in cuttings (which can be crossed by road bridges, and, when they are introduced, overflown by elevated roads) is too large a deviation from reality; certainly not compared with many of the other things on my lengthy to do list.

Offline AP

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Re: 0.8.4 - Underground Platforms?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 09:53:37 PM »
I thought the issue was more to do with the track between stations. Because the cost of simutrans (and conventional) bored tunnels is so high, and we don't have a different cut-and-cover tunnel available, our only affordable option is to use cuttings.