deManglers test Simutrans-Experimental Server

[jamespetts]

Some observations on balance and gameplay.

1. Time passes too quickly, I think: I logged in last night, and it was 1879 - now, it is 1886. An online game needs to be slower paced than a single player game, as people are not logged in all the time. There is much to be said for the suggestion that I made earlier that the game should auto-pause when nobody is logged in (and even more to be said for the enhanced version of that suggestion that there should be a sophisticated system for setting three types of times: always off, always on and on only when players are logged in. This should help to give a sufficiently slow but also sufficiently consistent set of timings. I wonder also whether there needs to be some adjustment to bits per month for online play. I should be interested in people's thoughts on that topic.

2. It seems far too easy to make a profit. I set up a single unsophisticated point to point railway line with two stations and one train in the 1840s. I was then busy at work and did not come back to the game until the 1860s. My line was so profitable that I had over twelve million in the bank. Having never expanded my network since then, I now have 34 million. The richest player has 286 million, which is more than enough by itself to build a comprehensive network covering the whole map many times over and run it at a loss for many decades. I need to check whether there are any bugs causing excessive revenue, but, assuming that there are not, some serious re-balancing is needed, including some of the things already planned for version 10.x.
Edit: I have found a bug in setting the scale factor in 9.8 which could quite easily cause excess revenue. This is now fixed in the 9.x branch.

Edit
3. Another thing that I note is that tunnels are far too easily built. That might be because the tunnels themselves are too cheap, or because profit margins are too high - but there are many tunnels in places that, in reality, would be quite uneconomic to put tunnels.

[sdog]

James, infrastructure cost for stations is turned off. This usually is a major cost factor.

Furthermore boats are way to cheap to operate. (Thanks to The Hood for the paddle steamers with their mail capacity. Would be a good idea for the Clyde steamer too.)

Long block still don't seem to work.  EDIT: It might be the road crossings, that count as signals. I'll try to eliminate them and see if long-block signals work. (Check at Radingley in my game)

[jamespetts]

Server seems to be down - status page reports that the server is not running.

Edit: To respond to sdog - I have found the bug in relation to building maintenance costs, and it will be fixed in the next version. Thank you for reporting that. The boats will need to be dealt with when the pakset is balanced, but thank you for pointing that out. As to the long block signals - I think that there is a fix for that in the latest Standard code, which I have yet to merge because of the major changes with industry that will take much time to integrate.

[deMangler]

Sorry about the server being down.
I accidentally uploaded a half-edited script to the server.
Fixed now. (it seems....)

dM

[deMangler]

The server will now no longer restart with the latest save.

Here is the console output.

Code Select Expand

Warning: waggon_t::set_convoi():        convoi 360 had a too high route index! (10 of max 9)
Warning: waggon_t::set_convoi():        convoi 438 had a too high route index! (9 of max 8)
Warning: waggon_t::set_convoi():        convoi 512 had a too high route index! (12 of max 11)
Warning: waggon_t::set_convoi():        convoi 518 had a too high route index! (25 of max 24)
Warning: waggon_t::set_convoi():        convoi 564 had a too high route index! (7 of max 6)
Warning: waggon_t::set_convoi():        convoi 572 had a too high route index! (25 of max 24)
Warning: waggon_t::set_convoi():        convoi 586 had a too high route index! (54 of max 53)
Warning: karte_t::laden():      loaded savegame from 4/1918, next month=556269568, ticks=0 (per month=1<<556267336)
Running world, pause=0, fast forward=0 ...
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::rdwr:       rdwr limits=(2016, 8064, 7104, 2517536, 1763168) apply_limits=0
Warning: karte_t::interactive:  nwc_routesearch_t object created and sent to server: sync_step=0 map_counter=109070465 limits=(2016, 8064, 7104, 2517536, 1763168)
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::execute:    append client_id=0 limits=(2016, 8064, 7104, 2517536, 1763168)
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::execute:    min_limit_set updated: last_update_sync_step=1 accumulated_updates=1
Warning: convoi_t::go_alte_richtung():  convoy with wrong vehicle directions (id 586) found => fixing!
Warning: convoi_t::go_alte_richtung():  convoy with wrong vehicle directions (id 586) found => fixing!
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::rdwr:       rdwr limits=(2016, 8064, 7104, 2517536, 1763168) apply_limits=1
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::check_for_transmission:     transmit sync_step=18 map_counter=109070465 limits=(2016, 8064, 7104, 2517536, 1763168)
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::execute:    to be applied: limits=(2016, 8064, 7104, 2517536, 1763168)
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::execute:    add to world command queue (sync step: command=18 world=17)
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::do_command: apply limits=(2016, 8064, 7104, 2517536, 1763168)
Floating point exception

I will take suggestions from the players whether to roll back to a previous save or start a new map.
Or something else.... 

dM

[sdog]

let's ask james first if he wants to pack the latest bug fixes into a new version, to start a new map with. Correct infrastructure cost might be interesting for a new game.

This session has been quite successfull, in finding crashes and having quite a large number of convoys and routes, which the server took quite well.

[Frank]

the best setting for server_announce_intervall is intervall>0 every x month


if an email address has been specified on serverlist-website, a message is sent when the server no longer reports ( beta function, too little tested )

[deMangler]

I have begun trying to get another server up and running using the binary provided by dustNbone  here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7507.msg71988#msg71988


It appears to be up so please test away!

dM

[jamespetts]

Might I suggest restarting and using 9.11?

[deMangler]

Might I suggest restarting and using 9.11?

Re-started using the same map and version 9.11.

I will update the server to the latest version as soon as I can generally, especially while heavy testing is underway, like now. It may not always be instantaneous although I will try to stay up-to-date..

[jamespetts]

DeMangler,

that is most helpful - thank you!

[elthore]

I wanted to play but when I connect, I dont have access to any players. Is it possible for me create or join a player?

figured that out, now how can i password it???

as well,  are there any rules on sharing lines and connecting to other players' stations or towns?

[sdog]

in the company list dialogue click on the green square right of the name, this should bring you to a dialogue where you can change your name and password.

sharing networks works at the moment mostly by making stations public and leaving room for others to connect. remember without a workaround/exploit it's not possible to share rail or railroad stations. after making a station public, the rail stays private.

[jamespetts]

I am hoping to improve features for co-operation between players without the involvement of the public service player at some time, but I have a rather long list of features to implement first.

[sdog]

in the meantime, if you are an online player and like such things to be implemented, check for the feature requests for standard there should be some suggestions there already. you can tell devs there is actually a demand for such features.

[deMangler]

Some game time may have been lost for some players in the current game.
The server exhibited it's "I am up but no-one can log in" behavior, the only cure for which is to re-start it.
The game date at restart was 1946.
The most recent save to re-start with was June 1916.
Sorry about that.

dM

[jamespetts]

Hmm - we need to consider an annual auto-save, I think.

[prissi]

There is an autosave every time a player joins. Just start the player without any savegame given will load the gamestate of last player joining. (The savegame is under simutrans/server13353-network.sve if the port is 13353.)

[jamespetts]

The difficulty with this is that, if a player logs in, plays for many hours, then logs out, then the server crashes before any other player has logged in, those hours of playing will be lost.

[prissi]

Any autosave need to be done also on the player computer or the games would run out of sync. Thus most easily, if you there for hours without desync just leave and join.

[sdog]

how about also saving if the only player leaves?

[jamespetts]

Sdog's idea is a good one, actually - that should be fairly easy to implement. Might I suggest that this feature goes into Standard?

[deMangler]

Dwachs net tool may have some features I can use to force a save.
I have yet to have the time to experiment with it.

I have wondered why there is not more passworded RPC type server admin available.
In any case - All in the progress of testing/developing.

I continue to be impressed by how well it runs on such a low spec server. Maybe I'll try an even bigger map next time if it deals with the timeline up to say 2000 ok on this size map.

dM

[jamespetts]

I'd be very interested indeed to see how it works on a larger map with a goodly number more cities.

[dustNbone]

I think it was me who killed it And it was around 1916 so I don't think much was lost.  I also believe I was the only one active at the time, but not sure.  Seems to be running great for the most part.  Thanks DeMangler

Dustin

[jamespetts]

dustNbone,

may I ask - what did you do, or what happened just before it went?

[dustNbone]

I was just setting up a tram (near Gorpool Colliery) to replace a stop I removed from a local train.  I think i might have crossed an active rail line with tram tracks, as the last popup I got was telling me that a train couldn't find a route.  The game's been quite stable thus far though.  Also, I can't seem to change my company name, but others seem to have done so, so it's me doing something wrong?

Dustin

EDIT: No worries, figured out how to change my name

[deMangler]

Well, the server made it to 1942 this time before becoming impossible to connect to.

Thanks for everyone who played, there were some pretty good setups developing. Unfortunately I didn't have time to play myself.

I will start again with a new map and new version as soon as I can.

dM

[dustNbone]

Binaries for 9.12:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P65ISOZ3

I haven't tested the server at all but compile looked clean.  Thanks for running the server.  Did it crash to the point where it couldn't load the save again or is this just some kind of networking glitch?

Dustin

[deMangler]

Binaries for 9.12:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P65ISOZ3

I haven't tested the server at all but compile looked clean.  Thanks for running the server.  Did it crash to the point where it couldn't load the save again or is this just some kind of networking glitch?

Dustin

It does not exactly crash, it just seems to stop talking. The network otherwise is fine.
I suspect my limited ram is an issue. But that is just a gut feeling at the moment, that does not really fit the facts.

Thanks for the binaries - I have started a new server with a bigger map / more stuff.

dM

[dustNbone]

It could be, looks like you're running it on 256MB? I have run the server but not in a constrained environment like that, it seems to use about 85MB itself, so 256 would be tight but it should use up all it's swap space before it has any failures.  Odd. Doesn't seem like anything really serious anyhow.  I wonder how the bigger map will affect footprint in RAM, we'll see I guess.

Dustin

EDIT: The server seems to be very slow to respond now, basically unresponsive once a couple of people are playing.  The stats page only indicates a small amount (14MB) of swap in use, but it may just be "over the line", and swapping constantly.  Is the server running in a VM or actually on a machine with only 256MB?  Swapping in a VM disk can be pretty slow, something to avoid in my experience.  Better to let the host OS swap and allocate more memory to the VM.  Anyways, that's how it seems to me.

Dustin

[elthore]

seems to be losing sync very often now even with just 1 player...or is it just me?

[prissi]

A VM is not very strong in CPU. YOu could set the server to a lower frame rate (liek -fps 8 or so).

[dustNbone]

The server doesn't use much CPU at all from my experience, and modern CPU virtualization is pretty efficient anyway.  Anyways, that's off topic, the server is running on a 256MB machine, virtual or otherwise, and this is pretty tight for a linux system, even a non graphical one.  The simutrans server itself uses around 90MB I think.

[deMangler]

A VM is not very strong in CPU. YOu could set the server to a lower frame rate (liek -fps 8 or so).

Thanks for the advice, I may try something like this if it gets bad.
When I was setting up the server first of all I did some stress tests for the RAM, CPU and network.
I think CPU is ok on this server - Even running a bitcoin deamon, simutrans server, and compiling something (can't remember what), CPU use barely registered.
The service I have is not the shared resources type - I get a minimum guaranteed amount of CPU - the minimum does not depend on other users.
It is 8 cores, so I don't know how good simutrans is at ustilising that, or how good the VM is at making it available, but I saw no sign that was likely to be an issue.
As I increase the map size I expect to reach a RAM ceiling. I don't think that I will be able to push it much more - even if the RAM is not what is causing problems now.
Anyway - it will be fun finding out.
dM