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Author Topic: Tracks replacement project for pak 128  (Read 121730 times)

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uktrain

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Re: Any high speed railway tunnel?
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2010, 02:50:22 AM »
Or you can dispatch it form pak.Britian-->350km/h

Offline Max Cheng

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Re: Any high speed railway tunnel?
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2010, 01:36:10 PM »
There is a Japanese pak set of "double-track" tunnel with 450km/h of maximum speed. I use it a lot in my save.

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2011, 12:42:01 PM »
More than one year passed and I returned to work on new tracks for pak128 (may it be that it will be used only in pak128.CS). Currently you can test this prototype of track for speed 280 km/h.

Curves are not used - but there are used eight new tiles - as they are on this linked picture from the left side:


... but I have not experience with these tiles yet.

daffi

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2011, 08:21:41 AM »
Nice works guys  :o :o

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2011, 03:58:07 PM »
If you think my last work, prototype of track for speed 280 km/h, than you have a bit strange scale of beautifulness - because it is a really awful work - and unfinished.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2011, 03:36:04 PM »
I began creation of new tracks - at first I prepared one for speed 280 km/h - but it is not finished - because it needs better shading of bed; I think that next would be track for speed 400 km/h - without classical sleepers. Other tracks should have shorter sleepers (current size was chosen for test).
I don't know what software do you use, but I am ready to share my work with you - to shift work on those tracks ahead.

I have a different speed plan:
60 - 80 - 120 - 160 - 240 - 320 - 400 km/h

Tracks are basically ready for (almost) all these speeds (and they are for a long time)

I got somewhat stuck with bridges and tunnels.

A good idea, if you feel like sharing the work, is to keep the track (ballast+sleepers+track) the same for a given speed and as similar as possible to the others.
e.g. mine are:
60 KM/H: sand ballast (with spots of grass), wooden sleepers, tracks with joints
80 KM/H: sand ballast, wooden sleepers, seamless tracks
120 KM/H: crushed rock ballast (brownish), wooden sleepers, seamless tracks
160 KM/H: crushed rock ballast (brownish), concrete sleepers, seamless tracks
240 KM/H: gravel ballast, concrete sleepers, seamless tracks
320 KM/H: gravel ballast, concrete sleepers, seamless tracks, all tile covered with gravel
400 KM/H: gravel ballast, concrete sleepers, seamless steel tracks (greyish), all tile covered with gravel

Details could still change, but the main goal is an overall consistency.

Timeline will be trickier:

60 KM/H
first tracks ever laid (1850+)
a general purpose track at first, which will remain goods only and be eventually retired circa 1950

80 KM/H
available from 1875
a general purpose track at first, will become goods only and be eventually retired circa 1975-2000

120 KM/H
available from 1900
a high speed track at first, will be less important in later eras and become goods only from 1975-2000

160 KM/H
available from 1925
a high speed track at first, will become general purpose track
it's also the most suitable tracks for stations, so it will probably have a version with the tile fully covered in crushed rock for rail yards

240 KM/H
available from 1950
highspeed mostly-passenger tracks

320 KM/H
available from 1975
highspeed passenger-only tracks
might be retired after 400 km/h tracks are introduced

400 KM/H
available from 2000
highspeed passenger-only tracks

As the eras change (25 years periods), tracks will change their scope. Sume will survive, other retired.
All infrastructure (bridges+elevated and tunnels) need to change according to the "look&feel" of the tracks in that era.

60 KM/H
wooden trestle bridge
no tunnel

80 KM/H
iron trestle bridge
tunnel portan hewn in rocks

120 KM/H
brick or rock arch viaduct 1900-1950
truss bridge 1950+
brick tunnel portal 1900-1950
concrete tunnel portal 1950+

160 KM/H
large (maybe even 1 tile large) brick arch viaduct 1925-1950
large concrete arch viaduct 1950+
(both also elevated)
wider brick tunnel portal 1925-1950
wider concrete tunnel portal 1950+

240 KM/H
pillars supported modern concrete viaduct 1950+
(also elevated)
wider concrete tunnel portal (roughly a circle) 1950+

320 KM/H
modern viaduct (also elevated)
"motorway-like" tunnel portal
(all 1 tile wide)

400 KM/H
modern viaduct (also elevated)
"motorway-like" tunnel portal
(all 1 tile wide)

I use GIMP for all my graphics, I can import multilayer XCFs and PNGs.
I use a standard set of textures, ESPECIALLY FOR BRICKWORK

Offline sdog

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2011, 12:12:47 AM »
Fabio, since those tracks have been finished for such a long time, perhaps you should do a partial release, of the tracks and some of the finished tunnels/bridges. The old bridges can work as placeholders in the meantime. This would make sure it doesn't slip out of memory of others, who in turn would perhaps do the same work again.

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2011, 05:40:00 AM »
I have a different speed plan:
60 - 80 - 120 - 160 - 240 - 320 - 400 km/h
May it be - I began preparing my tracks in accordance with original set.

Quote
A good idea, if you feel like sharing the work, is to keep the track (ballast+sleepers+track) the same for a given speed and as similar as possible to the others.
It would be good if you would download prototype (link is few posts above) of my track, see it and say if it is usable by yourself.

Quote
60 KM/H
first tracks ever laid (1850+)
a general purpose track at first, which will remain goods only and be eventually retired circa 1950

80 KM/H
available from 1875
a general purpose track at first, will become goods only and be eventually retired circa 1975-2000
It is not good if in menu are too many tracks ... but still somewhere are tracks built only for speed about 80 km/h

Quote
120 KM/H
available from 1900
a high speed track at first, will be less important in later eras and become goods only from 1975-2000

160 KM/H
available from 1925
It seems too high to me for this age - I would like to suggesting shifting of these two tracks by one age (those 25 years).
Only few trains could go by this speed - but technically they went only about 120 and 130 km/h.

Quote
240 KM/H
available from 1950
I am sorry for a little amount of being upset and eagerness for knowledge - but could you tell me which trains could go this speed? If I know well, the first trains that could go this speed appeared at least ten (or more) years later

Quote
320 KM/H
available from 1975
highspeed passenger-only tracks
might be retired after 400 km/h tracks are introduced

Quote
400 KM/H
available from 2000
highspeed passenger-only tracks
What train can go this speed? (I know that in game there are few trains but ...)

Quote
As the eras change (25 years periods), tracks will change their scope. Sume will survive, other retired.
Yes, it is very good idea - to let tracks change as time goes. But most important it is with tunnels.

Quote
I use GIMP for all my graphics, I can import multilayer XCFs and PNGs.
Yes. Thanks. It means I can export my track per parts - for easier improves.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2011, 07:15:12 AM »
Fabio, since those tracks have been finished for such a long time, perhaps you should do a partial release, of the tracks and some of the finished tunnels/bridges. The old bridges can work as placeholders in the meantime. This would make sure it doesn't slip out of memory of others, who in turn would perhaps do the same work again.
This is very sensible. Perhaps I'm too ambitious and I want to release all the time a full set. I will see when I can access the sources (they are on a different PC) and release a test pak.

It is not good if in menu are too many tracks ... but still somewhere are tracks built only for speed about 80 km/h
This is well take care of:

There won't be more than 4 tracks (+bridge +tunnel +elevated) available at any given year. Pretty much as it happens with roads.

It seems too high to me for this age - I would like to suggesting shifting of these two tracks by one age (those 25 years).
...
Only few trains could go by this speed - but technically they went only about 120 and 130 km/h.
...
I am sorry for a little amount of being upset and eagerness for knowledge - but could you tell me which trains could go this speed? If I know well, the first trains that could go this speed appeared at least ten (or more) years later
...
What train can go this speed? (I know that in game there are few trains but ...)
Tracks are supposed to have a ceiling speed: if just a train can go this speed between the start of the era and the beginning of the next one, the tracks should be available for the era.
Of course these tracks will be cutting edge technology for the time, but it allows to design a network which can be fully exploited for the present era and for the next one (up to 25+25=50 years, a reasonable lifespan for a railways infrastructure) without being upgraded.
Also in Real Life tracks are often designed for a higher speed than what the rolling stock presently allows to.
Moreover, the 400 kph tracks will e.g. allow for trains for such speeds as 360 kph etc... which couldn't exploit their max speed on "slower" 320 kph tracks.

This is the number of trains for each given speed in any given era:

Note 1: 1925 means 1925-1949, 1950 means 1950-1974 and so on
Note 2: the numbers are rather old, from the old closed source pak128. Since many vehicles have been dropped since and other have been added, figures could eventually change, but this table gives the idea of the general trend.

Yes, it is very good idea - to let tracks change as time goes. But most important it is with tunnels.
Tracks will change purpose but preferably not the look.
Some bridges and tunnels will greatly change their appearance in time.
Both design and materials will change:
1850-1950: brick, stone, wooden and iron trestles
1950-2050: pre-stressed concrete, few steel truss

It would be good if you would download prototype (link is few posts above) of my track, see it and say if it is usable by yourself.
...
Yes. Thanks. It means I can export my track per parts - for easier improves.
By the way, which programs do you use?

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2011, 09:52:31 AM »
Corel Draw 9. May it be that it is not perfect tool for painting of such graphics - but I am getting to be better. It can be seen on some addons I made. And finishing works are in GIMP (but I am not good in using of it).

Offline sdog

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2011, 04:47:40 PM »
Very well thought of timeline and speed combination Fabio. Certainly a great improvement to the present state in the pak.

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2011, 07:36:47 PM »
I decided to publish sources for prototype of new track for speed 280 km/h.
There are used few new parts.

There are few night-lighting pixels - and I am sorry for them.

I hope that I will publish new version of graphics soon - and it would be in GIMP XCF file - and also as PNGs - in accordance what I wrote in one of previous posts.

Offline greenling

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2011, 04:01:21 PM »
It the Tracks replacement project for pak128
beginning or planning time?

Offline PkK

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2011, 10:26:17 AM »
400 KM/H: gravel ballast, concrete sleepers, seamless steel tracks (greyish), all tile covered with gravel

I would recommend to use a "Feste Fahrbahn" (don't know the Englisch term) in staed of gravel ballast here. "Feste Fahrbahn" i sused on many high-speed lines these days. Even the French that went with gravel ballast for a long time are now using it for some of their new high-speed lines (and other countried, like Germany have been using it for some time). A typical picture can be found here:

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Feste_Fahrbahn_FFB%C3%B6gl.jpg&filetimestamp=20050917170741

Philipp



320 KM/H
modern viaduct (also elevated)
"motorway-like" tunnel portal
(all 1 tile wide)

400 KM/H
modern viaduct (also elevated)
"motorway-like" tunnel portal
(all 1 tile wide)

At such speeds, simple tunnel portals won't do (for single-track tunnels, which have a lower diameter than the double-track ones). You'll get a tunnel boom, like when firing a firearm, so the tunnel portal needs the equivalent of a suppressor.

This results in unusual-looking portals, like these:
http://www.eisenbahntunnel.at/bilder/tunnelportale/13002/wienerwald-west-2009-09-0835.jpg

Or, alternatively extra air outlets near the portal, like here:
http://www.tunnel-online.info/de/artikel/bildpopup_1097687.html?image=1
http://www.tunnel-online.info/de/artikel/bildpopup_1097687.html?image=3

Philipp




Mod note: please do not double-post. Edit your last comment instead.
~Fabio


« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:40:30 AM by fabio »

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2011, 10:37:04 AM »
I would recommend to use a "Feste Fahrbahn" (don't know the Englisch term) in staed of gravel ballast here. "Feste Fahrbahn" i sused on many high-speed lines these days. Even the French that went with gravel ballast for a long time are now using it for some of their new high-speed lines (and other countried, like Germany have been using it for some time). A typical picture can be found here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Feste_Fahrbahn_FFB%C3%B6gl.jpg&filetimestamp=20050917170741

I'm not a specialist on the issue, but to me (and from the pic) it seems more like replacing the railroad ties (sleepers) instead of replacing the ballast itself. It looks like it's laid on gravel, anyway.
The idea is considered, thank you for suggesting.



At such speeds, simple tunnel portals won't do (for single-track tunnels, which have a lower diameter than the double-track ones). You'll get a tunnel boom, like when firing a firearm, so the tunnel portal needs the equivalent of a suppressor.

This results in unusual-looking portals, like these:
http://www.eisenbahntunnel.at/bilder/tunnelportale/13002/wienerwald-west-2009-09-0835.jpg

Or, alternatively extra air outlets near the portal, like here:
http://www.tunnel-online.info/de/artikel/bildpopup_1097687.html?image=1
http://www.tunnel-online.info/de/artikel/bildpopup_1097687.html?image=3

Very interesting, and also very new to me. I know that today many long base tunnels are bored with two tubes. Also, the air shift of two trains meeting in a double track tunnel at these speeds can be disastrous.
I'll try to see how can a longer portal and some air flow outlets can be added to a single tile :)
Again, thank you very much for the ideas.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:46:31 AM by fabio »

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2011, 12:57:56 PM »
"Feste Fahrbahn" (don't know the Englisch term)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_tie#Ballastless_track

"Slab track" seems to be the term.

And @fabio - sounds like they consider it to be "ballastless" track, so the gravel is only used as a method of providing a roadbed, like gravel/stone under an automobile road. :shrug:

I learned some things this morning, though, so I'm happy either way. :D


Offline PkK

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2011, 02:13:03 PM »
Very interesting, and also very new to me. I know that today many long base tunnels are bored with two tubes. Also, the air shift of two trains meeting in a double track tunnel at these speeds can be disastrous.
I'll try to see how can a longer portal and some air flow outlets can be added to a single tile :)
Again, thank you very much for the ideas.

The portal from the Wienerwald tunnel probably wouldn't be much longer than the current ones (everything except for the red part will be buried). Here's some more pictures from other angles:
http://www.mooser.net/ref_admin/Arge-Tunnel-Wienerwald.jpg
http://www.wienerzeitung.at/_em_daten/_cache/image/wzo/0xUmFuZG9tSVYwMTIzNDU2NzC9Ub7MvX5c8ol2kix+4swVFzwbO/s1GioJ5qyHwKL9V9a7UixabtFVWEOcNfs0QB7zwLeAlMk0NghIlMzsNMg=.jpg

Philipp

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2011, 04:00:10 PM »
That tunnel is surely very interesting - but as I wrote somewhere else (ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT - about else shapes of tunnel), it is shape of tunnel for new ages. And its using in age in accordance with plan as is described above would be very strange. Ages before year 1990 need else shapes. And I don't think that it is so difficult to prepare more tunnels for one track - in comparison with preparing of tracks, themselves.

Offline missingpiece

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Straight track intersections instead of curves
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2012, 05:12:52 PM »
Hello dear team !

Are you aware of an add-on or other type of modification which renders intersecting train tracks with straights instead of curves. With all due respect for the smart track re-forming that is happening, I just prefer to see straight tracks as in pak64. Particularly in situations like these....


Offline Fabio

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Re: Straight track intersections instead of curves
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2012, 05:17:48 PM »
New tracks are being painted. Those won't have curved sections at all...

Offline missingpiece

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Re: Straight track intersections instead of curves
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2012, 06:38:17 PM »
Oh.....?! Wow !  ;D That's awesome. Please excuse me posting about it. I searched this forum but didn't find any reference to that work going on.

Hmm,...could you point me to the work-in-progress ? I can perhaps try myself on one or the other tile myself ? Trying to follow the tutorials I've read....

Offline Fabio

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RAILTRACKS REPLACEMENT: WORKS RESUMED
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2012, 09:54:07 AM »
I had finally managed to resume the work on tracks replacement for a few weeks till now.

As usual, I revised a bit my plan, mostly adding more tracks.  From 1940 on there will be 6 tracks (5 from 1930) with bridges, tunnel and elevated (for the upper levels) available all the time, with a progressive speed increase.

Basically, they are divided into 5 categories:


1) Slow freight: 60-80 km/h

2) Local service / fast freight: 100-120 km/h


3) Regular lines: 140-180 km/h


4) Express lines: 200-240 km/h


5) High Speed lines: 280-400 km/h

Here some tables.


Timeline:

TIME
185018601870188018901900191019201930194019501960197019801990200020102020203020402050
60
606060606060606060606060
80
8080808080808080808080
80
80808080808080808080
100
100100100100100100100100100100100
120
120120120120120120120120
140
140140140140140140140
160
160160160160160160160
180
180180180180180180
200
200200200200200200
240
240240240240240240
280
280280280280
320
320320320320320320320320
400
400400400400400
n. tracks available
111223445666666666666








Costs:



*
SPEED
WEIGHT
INTRO
RETIRE
COST
MAINT.
BRIDGE COST
BRIDGE MAINT.
ELEVATED COST
ELEVATED MAINT.
TUNNEL COST
TUNNEL MAINT.
1
60
120
1810
1960
30,00
0,75
440,00
11,00
0,00
0,00
0,00
0,00
2
80
240
1950
2989
40,00
1,00
450,00
11,00
0,00
0,00
850,00
13,00
3
80
180
1840
1940
120,00
2,70
550,00
13,00
0,00
0,00
950,00
15,00
4
100
180
1870
1970
150,00
3,40
590,00
13,00
0,00
0,00
990,00
15,00
5
120
180
1980
2989
180,00
4,10
630,00
14,00
0,00
0,00
1000,00
16,00
6
140
120
1910
1970
280,00
5,60
750,00
16,00
750,00
16,00
1200,00
18,00
7
160
120
1930
1990
320,00
6,40
800,00
16,00
800,00
16,00
1200,00
18,00
8
180
120
2000
2989
360,00
7,20
850,00
17,00
850,00
17,00
1300,00
19,00
9
200
100
1940
1990
500,00
8,80
1000,00
19,00
1000,00
19,00
1400,00
21,00
10
240
100
2000
2989
600,00
11,00
1200,00
21,00
1200,00
21,00
1600,00
23,00
11
280
100
1970
2000
840,00
15,00
1500,00
25,00
1500,00
25,00
1900,00
27,00
12
320
100
1980
2989
960,00
17,00
1600,00
27,00
1600,00
27,00
2000,00
29,00
13
400
80
2010
2989
1200,00
21,00
1900,00
31,00
1900,00
31,00
2300,00
33,00


Estimated work statistics:
TRACKBRIDGEELEVATEDTUNNELTOTAL
60
70%5%38%
80
70%5%5%27%
80
70%5%5%27%
100
90%80%5%58%
120
90%80%5%58%
140
90%60%40%70%65%
160
90%40%40%40%53%
180
90%5%5%5%26%
200
90%5%5%70%43%
240
90%5%5%30%33%
280
90%90%90%90%90%
320
90%90%90%80%88%
400
70%90%90%70%80%
TOTAL
84%43%46%40%53%



« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 10:18:36 AM by fabio »

Offline missingpiece

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2012, 12:36:26 PM »
Oh, gosh... that's a plan alright !  :o It is still a hobby for you, is it ?  :P

Hm, with regards to graphical work, I would not dare approach anything else than regular tracks on flat ground. Seeing their WIP percentage being rather high, I do not guess my noob assistance would be of any good to you, or would it ?

Offline Zeno

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2012, 01:35:30 PM »
Oh my..! Those are great news! :)
Our rail system's been begging for a renewal for ages...

Offline ӔO

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2012, 03:21:52 PM »
I think it would be better to change
400km/h to 480km/h

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2012, 03:36:56 PM »
Is there ANY commercial service on conventional rail (no maglevs) going that fast?

Besides, there are no trains of that speed in pak128 (not yet at least). Seeing tracks with a max speed of 480 km/h wuld just mislead them.

If trains faster than 400 km/h are going to be painted anytime, we will either update the value, either add a new track type.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2012, 03:43:49 PM »
AFAIK the highest commercial train in europe were the spanish Siemens Velaro trains, which were certified for running at 350 km/h. I think the newest french TGV (AGV) was certified 360 km/h, but not sure. I know that the chinese hst were really fast, but I can't say how much is "fast". Definetly, I'd say 400km/h is a good limit, unless we find a good reason to use a higher value.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2012, 04:01:18 PM »
Well, they do last until 2989 and there are already speed record runs that go over 480km/h, so I don't think it would be entirely out of the realm of possibility to see a conventional train in service at 400km/h+ somewhere down the line. I'd guess 2050?

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2012, 04:11:43 PM »
You paint the train, I'll paint the track ;)

Deal?

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2012, 04:23:30 PM »
sounds like a good deal :)

Offline mEGa

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2012, 06:53:45 PM »
AFAIK the highest commercial train in europe were the spanish Siemens Velaro trains, which were certified for running at 350 km/h. I think the newest french TGV (AGV) was certified 360 km/h, but not sure. I know that the chinese hst were really fast, but I can't say how much is "fast". Definetly, I'd say 400km/h is a good limit, unless we find a good reason to use a higher value.
To feed discussions :
You're right about speed :
"In January 2008 a test conducted by Alstom resulted in the train running at the speed of 360.9 kilometers per hour."
Italian version is named NTV and will run 330km/h
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 07:19:39 PM by mEGa »

Offline greenling

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2012, 07:02:21 PM »
fabio
 it´s possible to leave the track for 200 and 280 km/h in devlopent?
 And a track with 360 km/h be are missing.
 Thank you.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #102 on: January 19, 2012, 04:13:43 PM »
Here I come with some updates.


Tunnels for tracks 80-240 are almost ready!!! (as the tracks themselves)




Another screenshot:


« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:29:18 AM by fabio »

Offline VS

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #103 on: January 19, 2012, 05:44:55 PM »
Ummm... sorry to be the bad guy again, but I can't give up on quality.

The tunnels that have only shading and horizontal stripes are almost comic-like.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #104 on: January 19, 2012, 05:49:36 PM »
I know, those will need a good concrete texture ;)

The biggest part was the layout, and since you didn't complain on the point, I assume it can go...

(high percentage means the hours of actual work, texturing is a rather fast operation...)