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Offline Lord Vetinari

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Pak 128.Britain bridges
« on: June 05, 2009, 09:35:37 PM »
As The Hood suggested in this topic, I tried to make some bridges for the XIX century for the pak.

This one was vaguely inspired by this bridge on the Liverpool - Manchester ralway.



Since I have to fix a couple of issues (basically I messed up with all the front images - it's my first attempt at making graphics for Simutrans), can you please give me the images for the tracks (or tell me where I can dwnload them), so that I can put them on the bridge while I'm refurbishing the graphics? As I have to remake all the front images, I also plan to make them more similar to the original bridge.

If you like this, I can make some other bridges (I'm planning to make at least another one for the roads, now that I understood how things work) or tracks/buildings, I had fun making it.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 09:45:11 PM by Lord Vetinari »

Offline Spike

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 09:53:29 PM »
I hope I don't interfere with the authorities of the pak, but it seems the sources of the set (PNG and Dat) are available in the SVN on sourceforge:

http://simutrans.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/simutrans/pak128.Britain/

Edit: Tracks are in here:

http://simutrans.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/simutrans/pak128.Britain/ways/images/

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2009, 10:08:16 PM »
Vetinari, thanks for having a go at doing some graphics for Pak128.Britain!  Starting your simutrans graphics career is a bold step - they are pretty hard, I haven't drawn any from scratch myself!.  You can download all the graphics pngs from the SVN:

http://simutrans.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/simutrans/pak128.Britain/ (look in the ways/images/ subdirectory) Hajo was too quick for me :)


Can I ask how you made them? If you use blender (preferred method for pak128.Britain), I can send you existing source models of track and bridges if you want.  

Overall, it's quite hard to say much as it's a zoomed out preview.  It looks very good for a first attempt, but I would say it looks more in the style of pak128 than pak128.Britain, e.g. the brick texture is quite sharp, and the yellow edging is bright and bold.  I don't mean to criticise, but if you want me to consider it for inclusion in the pak it would need to fit better with the pak182.Britain style.  I'm quite fussy about that, because consistency is a key part of the whole project.  So I think you would need to tone down the brick pattern and make the edging paler / greyer and thinner.  I would also consider removing the railings on the top (they don't look so prominent in the photo).

If you do want to contribute graphics (and I would love some more contributors!) the best way for consistent results is to do it in blender using existing models as a starting point - that's exactly how I picked it up off kierongreen and why my stuff fits with the stuff he did to start with.  I can let you have any of those bits if you want - just ask.  

And if you don't fancy doing that, no problem - just release it separately as an addon for people to download and use as they want :)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 10:52:42 AM »
Couldn't the graphics be made to look less sharp and less saturated in The GIMP, rather than having to re-export the blends? If one were to magic wand the actual bridges (so as to select everything but the background colour), and then turn down the contrast and the saturation, might that not suffice?

Edit: One might also use a blur filter on a low setting.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:05:12 AM by jamespetts »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2009, 08:07:12 PM »
Lord Vetinari,

have you made any progress with those bridges of yours? If you send me the source files, I'll see if I can get them to fit in with the graphics of PakBritain...

Offline Lord Vetinari

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 07:18:55 PM »
Not much, unfortunatly. I'm sorry that I didn't answer before. I'm a freelance graphic / illustrator; some weeks I have plenty of free time, some other I can barely sleep. June has been one of those full periods. Not that I'm complaining, given the world crysis and everything.
I'm planning to finish the job I'm working on on Wednesday, so by the end of the week I should have enogh free time to fix a couple of issues of the bridge before giving it to you.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2009, 07:29:07 PM »
Terribly sorry to trouble you if you're busy - I know what it's like. That's very kind, thank you. If we can get the graphical consistency sorted out, the bridge might well make an invaluable contribution to PakBritain - we definitely need more bridges.

If there are any other things that you want to do for PakBritain, the easiest thing to do is to ask The Hood for the .blend files of existing items (which are all set up with the correct cameras/lighting), and then just modify those - that's what I did with the class 81. (To make a new item from scratch, you can still use the lighting/camera set-ups in the existing .blend files). Then you'll easily be able to make graphics consistent with the current style. We could certainly do with another graphical artist for the pakset, and you certainly seem qualified! Any contribution to the graphics would be extremely welcome. Thank you for putting your time into this :-)

Offline Lord Vetinari

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2009, 09:25:02 PM »
Don't worry, i'ts my fault. I should have warned when I got the job.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 12:03:55 AM »
crysis

Mmm-hmm, *sure* you've been busy with work. I suspect video games, rather.

;-)

Offline Lord Vetinari

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 02:40:31 PM »
Mmm-hmm, *sure* you've been busy with work. I suspect video games, rather.

Y is a bad letter  >:(. It always blows up my plans :-[.

Anyway, just to show that I'm not dead:





Basically, I remade all the front images to make them more similar to the original bridge, desaturated a bit all the colors (but I think that I should tune them down a little more - I don't know why, but in game everything seems brighter than what I see in Photoshop) and fixed some alignement issues (which is longer and harder than I thought). There are still some small problems (you can see a misaligned ramp in the first picture, and I have to add the arches to the ramps in the second picture), but I think that I can fix them in a couple of days.

About the dat, I set these parameters:

Code: [Select]
Obj=bridge
name=BrickRail
#copyright=
waytype=track
cost=50000
maintenance=1000
topspeed=80
max_lenght=10
max_height=1
intro_year=1830

Do you have any changes to suggest?

By the way, do you think that I should add the pillars?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 02:56:49 PM by Lord Vetinari »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 04:29:12 PM »
This is rather lovely :-) We really do need more bridges in Pak128.Britain, so your work is most appreciated. As to the brightness being different in Photoshop - do you have some sort of colour calibration? You mention that you are a professional graphic designer, so I imagine that you might well have. That could account for it. You could try turning it off when making things for Simutrans.

The Hood - any thoughts on how this bridge could relate to the existing brick viaduct in terms of time/cost/speed/weight/length limits?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 04:47:55 PM »
Looking good - although I still think the dark brick texture is too sharp when compared with the existing bridges - I think the thin black lines which suggest the pattern of the brick need to be toned down/removed/blurred?  I'm not sure how to make it different from the existing brick viaduct in terms of cost and limits, so I'm open to suggestions...

Offline Lord Vetinari

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 04:52:22 PM »
Thanks, I'm glad you like it.

Looking good - although I still think the dark brick texture is too sharp when compared with the existing bridges - I think the thin black lines which suggest the pattern of the brick need to be toned down/removed/blurred?

It's easy, I can tune down the contrast. I did it (not much though), but as I said, the change was more evident in Photoshop.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 04:57:36 PM by Lord Vetinari »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 09:10:51 PM »
I think that we may need a bridge research team to think about differentiation and come up with new bridges that need to be made... ;-)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 09:30:03 PM »
I am happy to announce the creation of said bridge research team, chaired by Mr Petts... :p

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 10:54:25 PM »
Continuing from the discussion in this thread above, I should be interested in the views of anyone who has knowledge about the history of railway, road and canal bridges in the United Kingdom from the 1750s to the present day. In particular, it would be helpful to know:

  • the different types of bridges available at different times in history;
  • the weight limits of different types of bridges;
  • the extent to which a bridge's structure limits the speed of vehicles passing over it, and, if so, the speed limits of various bridges;
  • the maximum lengths of various types of bridges (spanning arch types, steel girder types, suspension bridges, cantilever designs, etc.);
  • the relative costs (both capital and maintenance) of the various types of bridges; and
  • what each of the various types of bridges look like (links to pictures on the web would be particularly helpful).

I should very much appreciate any replies posted in this thread - it would greatly assist those working on the pakset to design a realistic and comprehensive bridges timeline. Any input would be very welcome :-)

Mod edit: merging topics and removing links...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 09:51:13 AM by The Hood »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 11:42:54 AM »
Certainly as a starting point we need some more modern bridges - e.g. concrete viaducts (motorway bridges, HS1 rail viaducts) and girder bridges.

Offline AP

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 06:27:49 PM »
Finding the key examples is easy, but getting the mainenance data will be a bit of an effort I suspect. The below all from a quick google:

For rail, I'd put the key "early" precedents as:

(obviously some kind of generic brick viaduct, available since the year dot)

1849 - (Brunel/GWR) Royal Albert Bridge over the Tamar -  long standing 15mph speed limit on it (because of severe approach curves i think though)

1859- (Brunel/Cornwall Rly) Timber "fan" viaduct [Book -"Brunel's Cornish Viaducts". Link to site which gives timings between stations on the line]

1890-(North British Rly) Forth Bridge [Mainenance costs given here]

>1870/50 - Meldon /Crumlin Viaducts (Photo, Photo) Steel Warren Truss designs.[Link refers to weight carried, slight mention of maintenance, on the latter (earlier).

Suggest asking at uk.railway newsgroup is the best way to find people with the right books for speed limits, weight limits, and maintenance if we're lucky.

Would also suggest the dates which designs were first built is more to do with when they were needed than when the technology was available. I mean, they only built the Forth Bg because of the Tay Bg collapse - it's more about circumstance. I think we should be generous when permitting bridge types by date.

for Canals:
1796 - Longdon on Tern Aquaduct (Pics)
1805 - Pontcysyllte Aqueduct (Wikipedia has construction cost but not mainenance. Load /speed not an issue given all that water...)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:00:19 PM by AP »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2009, 02:34:39 PM »
I needed a slight diversion from painting trucks, so here is a cobblestone road bridge.  It should make roads early in the game look a bit better (i.e. bridges without asphalt road surfaces and white lines!).  It's a simple splicing of Kieron's brick road viaduct and cobblestone roads.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2009, 03:45:55 PM »
Very nice!

Offline ӔO

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2009, 10:23:26 PM »
I drew up a basic and relatively easy to do Tubular box girder bridge, like the Brittania bridge.
still a work in progress, but any comments/criticism would be appreciated

Offline TheMacpau

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2009, 10:31:35 PM »
Nice idea, though I'm not sure about the bright green at the ends, pak britain is generally in muted colours.
Secondly, I've had a look at the bridge your trying to emulate and the  box section passes through the towers, but I'm not sure if thats replicable with the game engine.

Do you get pixel fighting when trains passthrough it, where you can sometimes see the internal train?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2009, 11:22:35 PM »
That looks lovely - it's good to see some new bridges! I agree with The Macpau about the green ends, though - there also seems to be a little misalignment with the track.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2009, 11:48:25 PM »
yes, the green and red won't be there in the end, they're just there to help me distinguish what is what in the graphics before the layers are flattened.

I'll look at the rail alignment again.
thanks for the comments.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2009, 10:03:17 AM »
AEO, good work!  Great to see some more people helping out with graphics :)  I know it's a work in progress, but comments so far (other than the above) would be it is lacking in texture.  Maybe a bit of rust/grime on the metal and some stone texture on the portals and pillars would be good.  Maybe you want to use the image below as a texture (it's the one I use for stone buildings).

http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/ABuvNFUIue/stonewall-texture.jpg



I've also merged a few bridge related topics together to keep the discussion in one place.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2009, 06:21:10 PM »
Nice idea, though I'm not sure about the bright green at the ends, pak britain is generally in muted colours.
Secondly, I've had a look at the bridge your trying to emulate and the  box section passes through the towers, but I'm not sure if thats replicable with the game engine.

Do you get pixel fighting when trains passthrough it, where you can sometimes see the internal train?

yes, there is pixel fighting when trains pass through it. It just seems to be a limitation with the simutrans game engine. It's unfortunate, but on the bright side, if your train is stuck there, for whatever reason, it should be easier to figure out where to click.


@ The Hood
oops. :o

Yes, you're right, currently there are no textures at all on the graphics.
I've noted down to add weathering and stone wall textures.


Question, will there be elevated ways for roads, rail and water?
Reason being, lot of the bridges in britain, at least from what I've seen in pictures, shows them as multi-segmented. i.e. Medway viaduct. It's not possible to replicate how those bridges look with a single span, but is possible with the use of elevated ways and one or a few bridges attached to it.

I do have some bridges like that sketched out on paper that I can try painting after I finish up this bridge. Right now, on paper I have drawn out: T-column, V-column, double stack style column, arch and bow arch that should be possible to do in game graphics.

I don't think it's possible to show the differences, in game graphically, the differences between spans, where the roads and rails actually run, like box girder, I-beam, spanning, etc. so that's all rolled into one with perhaps minor detailing differences between them.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2009, 06:25:54 PM »
Currently, I have not convinced Prissi to allow for elevated ways on water (*pout, pout*). I know that elevated ways build on roads work, but I haven't personally built any on rail, so I merely assume it works :)

Offline ӔO

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2009, 06:31:33 PM »
Currently, I have not convinced Prissi to allow for elevated ways on water (*pout, pout*). I know that elevated ways build on roads work, but I haven't personally built any on rail, so I merely assume it works :)
I have tried out elevated rails and roads from the japanese community, they work, but was wondering if it would be used in pak128.britain with graphics that matched this pak set better.

ok, hmm, I didn't realize water had no elevated way. Well, that's less work then :)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2009, 10:57:55 PM »
Elevated ways are planned.  The idea is at least to have one like the current viaduct and a concrete one for each waytype.  If you want to try doing these, go ahead, no-one has claimed them yet!

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Contributing graphics to pak128.Britain
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2009, 03:10:57 PM »
How's this for the masonry roadway bridge (started with the brick bridge, replaced the brick sections with a tiling of stonework from the Pub)


Offline The Hood

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Re: Contributing graphics to pak128.Britain
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2009, 10:10:37 PM »
Sounds good, but can't see the image - the link seems to be broken...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Contributing graphics to pak128.Britain
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2009, 10:56:33 PM »
That looks good, although be careful of the road surface: in the days when that type of bridge was current, painted white lines would not have been. Perhaps you could produce tarmac, cobblestone and dirt topped varieties?

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2009, 12:08:24 AM »
I should note that, in the most recent release of Pak128.Britain-Ex (for Simutrans-Experimental), a number of additional bridges have been specified which are awaiting graphics. They are:

  • Short Steel Girder Rail Bridge
  • Steel Box Girder Rail Bridge
  • Supported Steel Lattice Rail Bridge
  • Steel Cantilever Rail Bridge
  • Steel Suspension Rail Bridge
  • Steel Suspension Rail Bridge (modern)
  • Steel Suspension Rail Bridge (high speed)
  • Concrete Spanning Rail Bridge
  • Concrete Spanning Rail Bridge (improved)
  • Concrete Spanning Rail Bridge (high speed)
  • Concrete Supported Rail Bridge
  • Concrete Supported Rail Bridge (high speed)
  • Concrete Spanning Road Bridge
  • Concrete Supported Road Bridge
  • Concrete Supported Motorway Bridge
  • Concrete Spanning Motorway Bridge
  • Steel Spanning Road Bridge (cobblestone)
  • Steel Spanning Road Bridge (tarmac)
  • Steel Spanning Road Bridge (asphalt)
  • Steel Supported Road Bridge (cobblestone)
  • Steel Supported Road Bridge (tarmac)
  • Steel Supported Road Bridge (asphalt)
  • Suspension Road Bridge
  • Suspension Road Bridge (improved)
  • Suspension Motorway Bridge
  • Masonry Road Bridge (Macadam)
  • Masonry Road Bridge (cobblestone)
  • Wooden Road Trestle (Macadam)
  • Wooden Road Trestle (cobblestone)
  • Wooden Road Trestle (tarmac)

Note that a number of the above rail bridges also have heavy/light versions, but I do not think that separate graphics are required for these (but, if anybody wants to draw them, then I'll likely include them if they are up to standard).

AEO's new bridge I am likely to make additional to all of the above, when it becomes available, unless anyone has any better ideas.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Contributing graphics to pak128.Britain
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2009, 08:51:24 AM »
Yes, I can see the image now and it looks good, but I would agree with jamespetts - I think at least a cobblestone version would be good.  Also if you feel able to attempt a winter version that would be great! Sources for the new winter graphics are in SVN.

Mod note: topic merged with existing bridge discussion
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 10:12:19 AM by The Hood »

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Pak 128.Britain bridges
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2009, 04:35:08 PM »
ok ... image updated (might have to refresh in your browser) with cobble and macadam versions plus snow