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Author Topic: Underground Trains  (Read 69524 times)

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Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2012, 05:59:31 PM »
I feel we are in need of some good news: balancing and alignment is complete and the set is now being uploaded into SVN! I'm planning an official pakset release soon so I'd be grateful if people could test these and let me know of any problems prior to a release.

For the standard pakset only a limited selection of the liveries are available (1 per train) but all the images are in SVN so you can use them if you prefer.

@jamespetts - ask me if you need any help suggesting dwell time/upgrade/livery details for experimental.

Offline Milko

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2012, 06:04:30 PM »
Hello The Hood

Only a word:

Thanks  :)

It's a great addition.

Giuseppe

Offline ӔO

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2012, 09:52:51 PM »
whoops, wrong place.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 10:00:06 PM by ӔO »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #108 on: April 21, 2012, 02:49:39 PM »
Some people on the French forum also seem to be doing the Paris metro: see here.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2014, 08:01:29 AM »
Resurrecting this topic ahead of the second stage: subsurface line stock.

I wasn't planning any more locos as the A-class and E-class are already there, covering the two most prominent basic designs. For experimental though I suppose you might want a few more liveries (including A-class in District livery if that was different?).

Here is the list of plans as it stands, if anyone has any further comments or ideas?

S Stock   2010
D78 Stock   1980
C69 Stock   1969
A60 Stock   1961
R Stock   1949
O/P Stock   1937
T Stock   1927
K Stock   1927
G Stock   1923
F Stock   1920
Met Circle Stock   1913
Met 1906 Electric Loco   1906
District 1905 Electric Loco   1905
B Stock   1905
A Stock   1903
Met Jubilee Stock   1887
District Stock   1871
Met Ashbury 8-wheel stock   1864

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2014, 12:35:52 PM »
I think that that list is missing the Q38 stock.

We could also probably do with one or two more Metropolitan steam locomotives (perhaps the C Class (1891; this was essentially the same design as the SECR Q Class of 1881, so could be made available in multiple liveries in Experimental), the F Class (1901), the H2 Class (1920; this class moved to the LNER after nationalisation of London Transport in 1933) and the K Class (1925; this also moved to the LNER in 1933)) as well, as you suggested, as a Metropolitan District Railway livery of the A class (which needs to be re-scaled).

We could also do with brake carriages for the existing Metropolitan bogie and dreadnought carriages. On the subject of carriages, I have some information that you might find of use from Hamilton Ellis, "Railway Carriages in the British Isles from 1830 to 1914" (George, Allen & Unwin) at pp. 76-7,

Quote from:
Hamilton Ellis
The Metropolitan Railway carrriages proper, designed by Robet Burnett in the middle sixties, after the Great Western had ceased from working all but a few of the underground trains, were of standard gauge... though the relatively high roofs and gas equipment, initiated by the Great Western, were retained. Ther were two varieties, four- and eight-wheeled; the latter, which were much the commoner, and were built over a period of at least eighteen years without improvement, had a certain amount of sideplay to the axles...

The Metropolitan four-wheel carriages were at first close-coupled in pairs and a specimen of 1870 is illustrated in the endpapers. Each body was 20ft long and contained three first-class or four second- or third-class compartments. The eight-wheelers were identical as to coach-work and just twice as long. Width over mouldings was 8ft. 3in. and the maximum inside height 7ft. 1in. Iron-spoked wheels, 3ft. 6in. in diameter, were used, with 5ft. steel springs. The frames were of iron.

A features of the bodies, which persisted throughout the existence of the Metropolitan as a separate undertaking, was the rounding of the tops of the doors. Burnet claimed that this strengthened the door frame, but his chief object was the protection of the doors from damage in the not unknown event of their being left open during running. Teh round top just cleared the tunnel arch with the door open at right-angles....

The Metropolitan first-class compartments seated four passengers on each side, with intervening elbows, but the thirds, and even the seconds, were rather deplorable. The former had low-backed wooden seats with the partitions only 4ft. 10 in. apart, and the latter at first differed merely by having thin cushions of the seats and a strap squab along the top of the back. Handrails - forerunners of the too familiar straps and grips in the open cars of our time - were bracketed to the roofs.

[Hamilton Ellis continues to discuss the coal gas lighting which was considered "brilliant" at the time]

...Metropolitan close-coupled stock, it will be seen, lacked the short side buffers of the suburban stock described previously; there were central buffers with Sterne's patent pneumatic rubber springs, with short coupling links close to them on each side. The end buffers were connected to a large transvers compensating beam attached to the drawbar, which had two Sterne springs....

A prominent feature of the bodies on Burnett's Metropolitan carriages, in addition to the round-topped doors, was the provision of small toplights to the quarterlights. These were copied by several railways; the Midland took them up as late as the nineties and built them into the beginning of the [20th] century. District Railway coaches were very similar to those of teh Metropolitan, but were exclusively four-wheeled. Some of the old Metropolitan carriages had very long careers. Two eight-wheelers of the original design, dating from teh early eighties, were to be seen on the Quainton Road and Brill line until the beginning of the nineteen-thirties.

[Hamilton Ellis continues to describe the longevity of some of these carriages, then moves on briefly to the North London Railway carriages of the time, which were of some interest due to their being formed into block trains]

Illustrations of the four wheeled type (as used mainly on the District but sometimes also the Metropolitan Railway) are in the endpapers of the Hamilton Ellis work, whilst a photograph of one of the 8 wheel carriages of 1866 vintage in latter days (without its roof-mounted gas tank that looked from the outside a little like a clerestory) is to be found on p. 406 of "The History of British Railway Carriages 1900-1953" (David Jenkinson, Pendragon, ISBN 1-899816-03-8), who notes that these carriages were nicknamed at the time "Long Charleys", although they are also referred to as "Long Toms" by R. W. Kidner in "A Short History of the Railway Carriage" (Oakwood Press) at p. 93, which also illustrates one.

Jenkinson's work also contains a number of useful illustrations and details of some of the stock that you have listed above, which I mention in case you are short of information about such items.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2014, 04:34:11 PM »
As for the Q38 it appeared to me to be basically the same as the O/P/R stock which is in the list and overlaps time-wise, so it didn't seem to make sense duplicating it.

Early carriages - can you post any images as they seem hard to come by on the internet.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2014, 06:40:21 PM »
Hmm - I do not wish to infringe the author's copyright in the images, and I am not sure whether it has expired or not. Would you like me to produce the hauled carriages of early times? It might be worth adding North London Railway stock whilst we are about it.

As to the R/Q vehicles, their history is a rather complicated one, but I think that the Q38 motors were used in conjunction with a whole variety of earlier stock which was retrofitted with automatic doors and designated "Q stock", whereas the R stock motors (and "R38" motors to which the Q38 motors were converted) were used with R stock trailers. One would not need different graphics for them (although there would need to be red/white liveries), but it would be odd having "R stock" introduced in 1938. I admit, Q stock is not an easy thing to deal with in Simutrans.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2014, 07:01:29 PM »

Perhaps it's best if you do the coaching stock, you seem to have a good collection of references which I don't have - although I've already done 8-wheeler Met Ashbury coaches from 1863.


I'll produce graphics for the EMUs I listed above - it gives enough of a selection for standard. You can then reuse these for various upgrades in experimental if that helps.


On second thoughts I will produce more Met steam locos. I'll do livery variants based on your A class.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2014, 07:54:04 PM »
Ahh, lovely, thank you for those. Would you mind uploading the .blend file? It would be useful to produce an earlier variant (which I will code as a livery variant) showing the gas holder on the roof, and it would be useful to use these as a base for the 4-wheel versions used on the District.

As for the EMUs - the graphics on your list will probably suffice, as there were no outward differences between the Q38 and early R motor cars.

In respect of A class livery variants; do you plan to re-scale it first? It does need re-scaling, I think. I can find the correct length if that would help.

Edit: Some interesting information here about District Railway stock, including an example of the later brown livery carried (the original livery being varnished, no doubt very similar, therefore, in appearance to the Metropolitan livery).

Edit 2: There is also some rather useful information here.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 08:24:49 PM by jamespetts »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2014, 09:08:30 PM »
Have just emailed you the blend files as they are too large to upload here.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2014, 09:18:02 PM »
Splendid, thank you.

Edit: Hmm - I notice that these have the wrong roof profile, sadly: they appear to have a semi-elliptical roof rather than an arc roof. I am wondering whether it would be easier to start again or adapt this one...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 10:00:25 PM by jamespetts »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2014, 11:14:13 PM »
I have now adapted the graphics to give the correct roof profile, the later LT brown livery, windows at the ends of the brake carriages, the radial trucks in the correct position and other minor matters. Here are the images:













The .blend files are available on my Github repository. I have renamed the files using "met-" instead of "mr-" so as to avoid confusion with the Midland Railway, all of whose vehicles are named using the "mr" abbreviation. This also makes the carriages consistent with the existing Metropolitan railway vehicles in the game.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2014, 08:04:45 PM »
Excellent. At the other end of the timeline, the recent S-stock:


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2014, 08:14:50 PM »
Ahh, splendid. Evocative as the older units are, the S stock manages, chiefly on account of its superior ride quality, to be considerably more comfortable than much of what it replaces.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2014, 08:57:55 PM »
D-stock. I've also done the refurbished LUL corporate livery variant for experimental.



Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #121 on: May 12, 2014, 09:19:00 PM »
Here are some of the 4-wheel Metropolitan District Railway carriages from the early years of its existence, in both original varnished teak and later painted brown liveries:















I also have discovered that the earlier Metropolitan 8-wheel carriages that I showed in my last post were not correctly scaled: even taking into account the distortion factor of 1.25 in the x and z dimensions (the x and z dimensions being at 1.25 the scale of the y dimension), the carriages were still too tall and too wide based on the measurements given in the quote above. I have now re-scaled them, and the graphics visible above show this new scale.



Also, good work on the D-Stock.



Edit: Incidentally, I thought that this picture that I took about two years ago might be of some interest in this discussion:

Metropolitan Railway "A" Class 4-4-0 (7" gauge live steam model) by James E. Petts, on Flickr
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 12:40:33 AM by jamespetts »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #122 on: May 13, 2014, 08:48:08 PM »
Excellent. And here's the C-stock (again, refurbished LUL livery available too)



Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2014, 12:16:19 AM »
A timely addition, as it makes its farewell tour but next month, I believe.

One small thing: did they not have front cab doors a little darker than the surrounding?

C Stock at West Brompton by bowroaduk, on Flickr

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2014, 05:31:38 PM »
On some photos it seems to have a different colour end door as you show but on others (such as the one I was working from) it isn't noticeable. I think I will add it - it makes for a bit more interest than a plain white train.


EDIT: A-stock done. These are all looking a bit similar now, but I suppose they do in real life too. The re-done C stock has a gangway door looking a bit like the one you can see in the A-stock below.





« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 09:20:11 PM by The Hood »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2014, 09:48:46 PM »
Yes, they do look rather similar in reality - and I agree with you about the inconsistency in appearance of the door on different units, although I always remember the darker door, which I think looks a little better.

A-stock looking good, too. Would you like me to re-liver and re-scale the A-class since that was one of mine originally? Would you like me to decide on the appropriate shade for Metropolitan red/purple or would you like to suggest an RGB value? I think that I am correct in surmising that the District Railway only ever had the one type of locomotive which was nearly identical to the Metropolitan A-class (and which I shall produce as a livery variant of it), which had a green livery - presumably the basis for the line's colour scheme now.



Incidentally, I have found some interesting information on 4-wheel carriages produced for the Metropolitan in the 1880s, the "Jubilee" carriages, longer than the 4-wheelers used on the District. The District, always financially less well off than the Metropolitan, appears to have retained its original coaching stock until electrification in the first few years of the 20th century - I cannot find any information on later carriages, although I suppose that there might be some.

Edit: Here are the "Jubilee" carriages of the 1880s, 27ft. 6in and 5 compartments long (very cramped conditions!):













« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 11:35:58 PM by jamespetts »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #126 on: May 15, 2014, 05:36:01 PM »
Excellent again. Quite happy for you to do all the steam locos and coaching stock. I'll work backwards through the EMUs and we'll meet in the middle somewhere. As far as I was aware the District steam locos were essentially identical to the Met A Class but green, so a livery variant is best.


EDIT


O and P stocks (a single vehicle type as I've drawn them as they are so similar) in red and R stock in white. For experimental the R stock should have a red livery too using the OP graphics - visually pretty indistinguishable but a different arrangement of motor cars apparently.





« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 09:32:30 PM by The Hood »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #127 on: May 15, 2014, 11:57:39 PM »
Splendid! Any thoughts on the Metropolitan colour scheme? Some of the existing locomotives drawn by Kieron have a purplish colour, but I am not sure what the colours in Blender were, and apparently the .blends have been lost.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2014, 06:50:16 AM »
Go with what you think looks right. I think there is just the E class and the Met Vickers that Kieron drew, but both may need redrawing/scaling? I certainly don't have the blends

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2014, 07:00:15 AM »
I've been looking for a while now and can't find them either :(

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2014, 06:52:42 PM »
Here are the Metropolitan Railway bogie carriages of 1898 - there are already graphics representing these in the pakset, but the .blends are lost, they are not to scale and are missing brake vehicles and multiple liveries. Old:



New:












Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2014, 03:17:21 PM »
I have now re-scaled and re-livered the Metropolitan A-Class:


Metropolitan District Railway


Metropolitan Railway (early green)


Metropolitan Railway (midcared red)


Metropolitan Railway (later period)


London Transport


London & North-Western Railway (Southern Division red)


London & Noth-Western Railway (black)


Midland Railway (early green)


Midland Railway (lake)

I suggest that the Metropolitan Railway midcared red version is used for Standard, as this is probably the most well known livery and the one in which the sole preserved example is displayed.

Edit: For reference, the Metropolitan midcared livery colour in Blender is (in HSV): 0.965, 0.770, 0.325.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:33:13 PM by jamespetts »

Offline greenling

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2014, 03:28:40 PM »
Hello Jamespetts
The New Trains they you have be make Looks Very gerat out. :thumbsup:

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2014, 03:34:11 PM »
Thank you, Greenling. These are not all new: some are re-rendered images of existing vehicles in the pakset (such as the bogie carriages and the A Class locomotive), but the earlier carriages are new.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2014, 11:21:32 PM »
Here are the push-pull trailer conversions for the Ashbury bogie carriages in varnished teak and painted brown liveries (these are probably only useful for Experimental):





Here is the Metropolitan C Class locomotive, a close relative of the SECR Q Class and really rather similar to the Midland Railway 1833 class, which is already in the pakset:



Incidentally, what is the plan with the Dreadnought carriages and T-stock? According to our current arrangement, with me doing steam hauled stock and locomotives and you (The Hood) working on multiple units, I am set to do the dreadnoughts and you are set to do the T-stock. This seems unwise, as the T-stock was closely based on the dreadnoughts; any thoughts as to what best to do with these vehicles?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #135 on: May 19, 2014, 08:36:43 PM »
Good work! It probably makes sense for you to do the T stock in that case. It was next on my list but I haven't started. I'll stick to the District EMUs.


PS Do you intend doing the SECR Q1 Class as a separate loco or a livery variant? We don't have any SECR locos at the minute I don't think but no reason not to in the future.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 08:42:13 PM by The Hood »

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #136 on: May 19, 2014, 11:53:12 PM »
Very well - I shall do what later became known as the T-stock (although that was a London Transport name for it - the Metropolitan called it the "MV/MW Stock" (MV for vacuum braked stock or MW for air braked stock), and I generally take the view that it is best to use contemporaneous names rather than retronyms where possible (although we have made an exception, I am aware, for BR built rail vehicles later assigned TOPS designations)). I shall also do the multiple unit conversions of the Ashbury stock that I do not think was on your list.

As to the SECR Q Class, it is not an entirely easy question whether it should be a livery variant, as it had a totally different name (and, of course, the Metropolitan version had condensing apparatus). My plan was not to do SECR things for quite a while, the NLR, SR, LSWR, GWR, GNR and LNER all taking priority (the SECR being functionally too similar to the Brighton line in which I have produced a full timeline, and having the added complication of having merged in the late 19th century), and that is not counting the more pressing non-railway and even non-pakset priorities such as 'buses, assisting Giuseppe with aircraft and much balancing/coding. My general approach in respect of railway vehicles has been to do batches of the same railway company's vehicles to give a comprehensive time-line of that railway company (as we are currently doing with the Metropolitan and District railways, and London Transport's continuation of them after nationalisation) so as to have a coherent set. This means that there is plenty of time to decide what to do about the SECR Q Class unless somebody else has a burning desire to produce an SECR/LCDR/SER set any time soon.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2014, 01:15:04 PM »
Sounds good to me. I agree MV/MW stock is preferable to T stock.

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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #138 on: May 24, 2014, 06:52:37 PM »
I have now finished the graphics for the Metropolitan Railway motorised stock of 1906, a conversion of the Ashbury bogie stock of 1898. Graphics for this were already in the pakset, but, as the .blends had been lost, it was not possible to modify them to different liveries, so it was better to start again.

Old:


New:







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Re: Underground Trains
« Reply #139 on: May 25, 2014, 04:01:17 PM »
I have now added the .dat files for all of the above items, together with consequential changes, here.